New Discovery Channel series "Showdown: Air Combat"
Sat May 31, 2008 1:42 pm
I caught some scuttlebutt about this new series in my latest "HDVideoPro Magazine". Sounds like these guys are using some new cutting edge video technology to showcase WWII air combat. KInd of like "Dogfights" in a sense, but with a mix of real fighters plus some CGI influence. Apparently the Planes of Fame collection is providing the aircraft for the series (Zero, F4U, P-38, P-51, Bf-109. P-47, Fw-190).
Do any of you West Coasters have any inside info about this one that you can share?
Do any of you West Coasters have any inside info about this one that you can share?
Sat May 31, 2008 2:33 pm
I'm not a west coaster (actually a Yankee from Philly) but it's supposed to be awesome. Max Moga (F22 demo guy) is the narrator and was in the back of a T-6 flying along with the other PoF planes as they were shooting the footage. All sorts of combat combinations are included, like Corsair-Zero, etc. Max told me the series ends with a show about the Raptor and I can't wait to see it. jb
Sat May 31, 2008 2:53 pm
Robert Shaw of "Fighter Combat" fame is one of the talking heads in the series
Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:41 pm
Looks like it's set to premier on Sunday. Still can't find the listing on the Military Channel website, but commercials say Sunday it is...
Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:42 pm
I think it's 5pm EDT Sunday
Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:49 pm
OH goody...it's on the Military Channel which I DON'T GET 
Mudge the REALLY PI$$ED
Mudge the REALLY PI$$ED
Showdown air combat site
Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:51 pm
Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm
DVR is already set. Looks to be interesting at least.
Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:05 am
I don't see any of ya'll making amny comments on this new show...too much time tradin paint...er, umm, I mean tradin barbs 
Caught most of the Lightning-vs-Zero show yesterday on the Military Channel. Thought it was kinda funny when they were showing the Zero in flight and had large bomber sounds as the background noise
Not meaning to stir up any more shiite than what is already stirred up here on WIX as of late. Thought it might be a good way to get us talking about our love of old airplanes again
Caught most of the Lightning-vs-Zero show yesterday on the Military Channel. Thought it was kinda funny when they were showing the Zero in flight and had large bomber sounds as the background noise
Not meaning to stir up any more shiite than what is already stirred up here on WIX as of late. Thought it might be a good way to get us talking about our love of old airplanes again
Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:39 am
Well ok I'll give you my thoughts:
What a terrible show.
(Caveat: I saw all of the first show and half of the second).
The vaunted air combat setups are nothing more than formation flying of the two adversaries and an occasional weaving back and forth.
Somebody needs to fire the writer - Moga's lines are cheesy and over the top.
I do like the cockpit descriptions.
Dogfights was a clearly superior format and presentation. Much more informative.
What a terrible show.
(Caveat: I saw all of the first show and half of the second).
The vaunted air combat setups are nothing more than formation flying of the two adversaries and an occasional weaving back and forth.
Somebody needs to fire the writer - Moga's lines are cheesy and over the top.
I do like the cockpit descriptions.
Dogfights was a clearly superior format and presentation. Much more informative.
Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:01 am
What Saville said
Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:34 am
Saville wrote:Well ok I'll give you my thoughts:
What a terrible show.
(Caveat: I saw all of the first show and half of the second).
The vaunted air combat setups are nothing more than formation flying of the two adversaries and an occasional weaving back and forth.
Somebody needs to fire the writer - Moga's lines are cheesy and over the top.
I do like the cockpit descriptions.
Dogfights was a clearly superior format and presentation. Much more informative.
I'm not surprised. Any meaningful comparison between competing fighters would involve maneuvering in each airplane's flight envelope in excess of where the average warbird owner would feel comfortable putting a million dollar plus airplane.
I can't speak for other warbird pilots, but I seldom put a WW2 fighter in the air with the intention of putting more than 4 or so g's on it.
In any serious maneuvering situation involving the seeking of advantage, the airplane will be above corner at least part of the time and loading it above corner can take the airplane out further in g than the average owner might want to be.
I haven't seen the show and am not familiar with the format, but if real aircraft are being used, what I've said here might be the cause for what you saw on the screen.
Hope this helps a bit.
Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:09 am
Yeah Im not that impressed at all. I agree dogfights is better hands down.
Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:13 am
Dudley Henriques wrote:Saville wrote:Well ok I'll give you my thoughts:
What a terrible show.
(Caveat: I saw all of the first show and half of the second).
The vaunted air combat setups are nothing more than formation flying of the two adversaries and an occasional weaving back and forth.
Somebody needs to fire the writer - Moga's lines are cheesy and over the top.
I do like the cockpit descriptions.
Dogfights was a clearly superior format and presentation. Much more informative.
I'm not surprised. Any meaningful comparison between competing fighters would involve maneuvering in each airplane's flight envelope in excess of where the average warbird owner would feel comfortable putting a million dollar plus airplane.
I can't speak for other warbird pilots, but I seldom put a WW2 fighter in the air with the intention of putting more than 4 or so g's on it.
In any serious maneuvering situation involving the seeking of advantage, the airplane will be above corner at least part of the time and loading it above corner can take the airplane out further in g than the average owner might want to be.
I haven't seen the show and am not familiar with the format, but if real aircraft are being used, what I've said here might be the cause for what you saw on the screen.
Hope this helps a bit.
My beef is the fact that the advertisements suggest the battle will be "re-enacted" using flyable warbirds, and then showing some - admittedly nice - formation flying and a couple of weaves. If owners/pilots of the warbirds don't want to do much more than weaves that's fine by me - just don't advertise it as anything else.
What Moga does is discuss the various design choices between the two a/c and detail how that translates into performance differences. Fair enough. So why not give a little low-stress demo
without risking much. For example, they could have done a nice, sedate 2G turn in, say, the Zero and the P-38 (Episode 2) and that would show the viewer who has the advantage after 180, 360, etc degrees of turn. They could have even started off at the opposite sides of the circle, with the chase plane above (maybe inverted with the camera). Are they showing the two a/c maxed out in the turn? No. But you don't need to run them that hard to provide an illustration.
They could have started each a/c in line abreast, and put them both in a climb, and viewers might see the difference in performance. And maybe (in the case of various a/c matchups) show that done at different altitudes.
In the Zero vs P-38 episode Moga and Hinton discussed how the Zero's ailerons stiffened up at high speeds, and how allied pilots used this knowledge to their advantage. Ok. So why not put the Zero behind the P-38 - nice safe distance - and have the P-38 start to roll and turn, left and right, not very hard, and have the Zero roll more slowly - purposefully - as if to simulate high speed, and show how the P-38 edges away? (Of course I didn't see the second half of the show so if they actually did that - mea culpa
)
Whether those sorts of visual demonstrations would be entertaining is a different question.
But again, my beef is with the advertisement vs what is delivered.