Mideast MIG Killers

[michaelharadon]

Is is just a rumor that USAF fighter pilots flew with the IAF during the 1972 October war and scored kills against Arab aircraft?

[John Dupre]

This is something I have read about a good deal. It is not true that active duty USAF pilots flew combat in Israel during the war.

USAF pilots were used to ferry replacement F-4 Phantoms to Israel during the war.

At least one former USAF Vietnam veteran F-4 pilot with Jewish heritage had emigrated to Israel and flew combat missions. Supposedly the IAF found his air to air skills deficient and he flew mostly interdiction missions.

There is also supposed to be an American born Israeli F-4 fighter ace. I believe that most of his kills were scored before Yom Kippur and he may have been a POW before 1973. (Don't have my references handy.) In any event this individual emigrated to Israel as a boy and never served with the USAF.

[michaelharadon]

Thanks, John.

[warbird1]

Now, U.S. Navy pilots - that's an entirely different matter!

[michaelharadon]

Now, U.S. Navy pilots - that's an entirely different matter!

Do tell!!

[Swiss Mustangs]

here's a listing of Israeli aerial victories

http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/vi ... srael.html

Martin

[John Dupre]

My favorite story about the Yom Kippur War era came just afterward. An American delegation was touring Israel including one of the Mig aces from Vietnam. His escort was one of Israel's highest scoring pilots. As they toured various air bases the American pilot kept regaling the Israeli ace with accounts of his air combats and victories (5) while the Israeli pilot kept his own counsel. Finally the American couldn't help asking the Israeli some questions...."Have you been in combat?" Yes. "Did you score any victories?" Yes. "How many?" Seventeen. The American ace was quite subdued from that moment on.

[Swiss Mustangs]

John

that's must have been Colonel Giora "Hawkeye" Epstein

he's the top-scorer with 17 victories

Martin

[michaelharadon]

Martin

That's a real interesting list. I'm wondering, though, if there were any American military pilots (from any service) that flew with the IAF, that their victories, if any, wouldn't show up on any kind of list...

I know I read in the last few years that Arab fighter pilot radio transmissions to the effect that the pilot(s) encountered new tactics were monitored and that was taken as a clue that Americans were flying Phantoms.

[John Dupre]

Martin

That's a real interesting list. I'm wondering, though, if there were any American military pilots (from any service) that flew with the IAF, that their victories, if any, wouldn't show up on any kind of list...

I know I read in the last few years that Arab fighter pilot radio transmissions to the effect that the pilot(s) encountered new tactics were monitored and that was taken as a clue that Americans were flying Phantoms.

From what I have read the various Arab air forces usually claim that the Israelis were never as good as they seem to be and that the spectacular successes were the result of foriegn pilots. If they are not claiming that then the Arabs are claiming that they were outnumbered.

In actuality they Israelis have had different periods of success. Up until about the 1950s they used mostly older WW2 era piston engined aircraft and were not really that professional. With the advent of jets there were several Israeli pilots that really studied how to fight and win airwars in the jet era. The Israelis even had one pilot who was the equivalent of John Boyd or Fred Blesse who developed Israeli tactical doctrine tailored to the strategic imperatives of Israel. Without that the Israelis would never have been as good as they are. The Arabs have never developed that type of tactical or strategic acumen.

[Randy Haskin]

From what I have read the various Arab air forces usually claim that the Israelis were never as good as they seem to be and that the spectacular successes were the result of foriegn pilots. If they are not claiming that then the Arabs are claiming that they were outnumbered.

Having worked closely with current incarnations of both the Israeli AF and more than one Arab AF, the correct answer is somewhere in the middle.

While very good, the Israeli Air Force is nowhere near the 11-foot-tall monster that their PR machine would have you believe them to be. Certainly for a group of their size and resources, they are very skilled and can wield very effective airpower. They have been able to pull off some spectacular victories against what appear to be phenomenal odds.

The other side to this is that Arab air forces are generally NOT very skilled. In making such a claim, I am flirting with painting several countries with a VERY broad brush, but I have seen enough evidence to support such a generalization. I've worked directly with two (not including this new-fangled post-2003 Iraqi Air Force!) and have spoken with acquaintances who have flown with two other Arab air forces.

Arab air forces are less interested in actual combat skills than they are of leaving potential foes with the impression that they are skilled. They are interested in having good equipment (aircraft, weapons), and flying that equipment, but they have no legitimate interest in having tactical prowess in the employment of those aircraft and weapons. They are very concerned with how things "look", and less concenred with how things "are". More detail on that below...

So, the result of this is that it has been easy for Israel to be the "badass" of the block when all the other kids on the block have been idiots.

That's not to say that the Israelis haven't pulled off some amazing feats -- they have. But the fact of the matter is that their opponents haven't exactly been highly skilled.

The Israeli Air Force has been able to exploit the importance of perception of skill into the "myth" that they enjoy today -- that the IAF is an absolutely superior fighting force that, pound for pound, is the best in the world. They have parlyed their decisive victories against mediocre enemies into this perception. Add into that the relative secrecy under which the IAF operates, and you have all the makings for a real whopper of a story.

The reality is that the IAF is simply a good Air Force. They have a great fighting spirit, and because they are actively engaged in legitimately defending themselves all the time, they have avoided the PC craziness that has infested the USAF and are able to focus only on being the best fighting force they can be. They fly with a good mix of equipment (some of it FANTASTIC, like the Python V missile, etc) and have a unique way of keeping a large cadre of experienced pilots/aircrew available and ready for all-out war.

As an aside to the conversation, I have a good friend who recently returned from an exchange assignment with one of the Arab air forces I mentioned above. His end-of-tour report to USAF headquarters is absolutely astonishing, and gives a little more detail into why I make the statements above. Here is one paragraph in his overall summary:

It is with regret that I say that I feel the XXX Air Force will never be anything better than a mediocre Air Force.

This is not a factor of ability or intelligence, it is a plain and simple difference in culture that contradicts the standards with which USAF pilots have been born and bred. Their causal attitude towards time constraints comes across as unprofessional and indolent when they show up late to briefs and debriefs. Their comfort in sticking with what they have always done comes across as being lazy or apprehensive to try something new in which they may fail before they eventually succeed. Their method of learning through rote memorization rather than practical application prevents them from thinking out of the box; 90% of them can rattle off insignificant system specifications for the [specific type of fighter aircraft weapon system], but they can’t tell you why [using said system] will defeat enemy threats. Their method of passing down information by word of mouth leads to them teaching outdated and incorrect procedures rather than seeking updated information. Their social and rank structure prevents younger motivated aircrew from questioning the (often times incorrect) teachings of senior ranking instructors.

I would argue that every USAF flyer comes to this country with a true motivation and desire to help the XXXXX. But slowly over the course of our tour, that desire is chiseled away. Their inability to provide a consistent schedule – 0430 wakeup one morning and night flying the next – wears on us. The lack of professionalism and respect – instructors who show up late to briefs or debriefs (if at all) and answer cell phones while we brief – wear on us. The repetitive instructional mistakes – realizing that you can only correct the instructors so many times in front of the students before they begin to lose face – wears on us. The administrative buffoonery – showing up at 0530 only to find that your brief time was moved to 1000 or your sortie was cancelled all together and nobody bothered to tell you – wears us on. The maintenance fears – knowing the extent to which XXXXX maintenance pencil whips their forms and wondering whether your jet will return safely – wears on us. The pilots who are scheduled to double-turn with no chance to debrief become aggravated. The desire to teach and help the XXXXX thrive is replaced with a desire for self-preservation and the realization that trying to make them better is losing battle that will only cause you frustration.

While [US military] advisors remain in place to assist XXXXX aircrew, they will never become a proficient or self-sufficient Air Force.

[John Dupre]

>>>Having worked closely with current incarnations of both the Israeli AF and more than one Arab AF, the correct answer is somewhere in the middle.<<<

I will certainly defer to your expertise. The information you gave is fascinating. I have read in other contexts that a typical US or British sergeant has more actual authority than a typical "Arab" Colonel in terms of planning and organizing any activity. I have also read that when an "Arab" pilot or officer is sent overseas for training on his return he keeps all the training materials to himself and only dispenses some of the information in order to guard his newly minted reputation as an expert. What was that old saying...West is Best and East is Least.....