When to ground a warbird?

[flyingheritage]

At what stage should a flying warbird be grounded to ensure it surivives into the future OR should warbird be kept flying endlessly into the future?

Where does the ground line fall at?

Its been raised single type shouldnt be flown due to writing off the sole type permanently if they crash but then if not flown its never seen by anyone around world.

So when time comes when does someone say "ground it"?

[jet1]

when there is not enough left of it to fly...or when its been abused on a pole and corroded beyond safety limits.

[A2C]

At what stage should a flying warbird be grounded to ensure it surivives into the future OR should warbird be kept flying endlessly into the future?

Where does the ground line fall at?

Its been raised single type shouldnt be flown due to writing off the sole type permanently if they crash but then if not flown its never seen by anyone around world.

So when time comes when does someone say "ground it"?

Would you have anything to say if the owner of the last one wanted to fly it and somebody voted (in vain) to ground it?

Last edited by A2C on Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[k5083]

I almost thought A2C's question was worth responding to, but then his signature reminded me that it, and he, are not.

August

[Cvairwerks]

The only time one should be gounded is when the owner can't afford to maintain it in a flight safe manner and/or can't afford to fly it enough to stay comfortably current in it. At either point it need to move to new ownership or partnership.

[262]

when the planes are to rare to fly we need to build replicas.where is the sheet metal lets start cutting!

[michaelharadon]

At what stage should a flying warbird be grounded to ensure it surivives into the future OR should warbird be kept flying endlessly into the future?

Where does the ground line fall at?

Its been raised single type shouldnt be flown due to writing off the sole type permanently if they crash but then if not flown its never seen by anyone around world.

So when time comes when does someone say "ground it"?

Would you have anything to say if the owner of the last one wanted to fly it and somebody voted (in vain) to ground it?

Thought provoking question, A2C, much like a lot of what you post. Thanks for asking it, as it's definitely worth responding to.

As long as I'm not harming anyone else, I don't want anyone telling me what to do with my possessions. Period, end of story.

[aseanaero]

If an owner has put blood , sweat and cubic dollars into restoring a warbird nobody has the right to tell him he can't fly it.

If someone else thinks it shouldn't be flown make him an offer he can't refuse , i.e. BUY IT from him

You can't get the sounds , smell and visuals from a museum exhibit that you can from a flying exhibit.

Fortunately there are still people in the warbird community that do have the money to keep some of these old birds in the air and we should keep it that way as long as possible.

80% of the currently flying WW2 aircraft will be grounded within 20 yrs due to escalating operating costs anyway as the mountains of surplus NOS parts and parts which can be repaired are finally drying up , owners will have to custom make parts in the future which will drive up the cost exponentially.

It's amazing that there are people and organisations out there that can fund A-4s / F-4s and other 50's, 60's and 70's jets.

Very very very few will be able to afford an F-16 , F-18 or F-15 when these are all retired as the level of cost are on another much higher level again. For example where is a flying example of an F-14 now , can you even buy any of these aircraft in the future or will they be all shredded ?

We will be seeing more than our fair share of static displays in the future , fly them now while we still can

[RyanShort1]

For example where is a flying example of an F-14 now , can you even buy any of these aircraft in the future or will they be all shredded ?

Iran! And I'd bet that with the right offer it could be bought. Wouldn't even think of trying to import it, though.

Ryan

[A2C]

Iran! And I'd bet that with the right offer it could be bought. Wouldn't even think of trying to import it, though.

Fly it in England or Australia w/ Iranian markings.

[aseanaero]

Iran! And I'd bet that with the right offer it could be bought. Wouldn't even think of trying to import it, though.

I'm sure that you would be caught up against some nasty law somewhere.

The issue is also $$$ , who has that sort of cash to maintain a complex aircraft like that ?

Piston engined and early jet warbirds are still in the realms of a moderately wealthy person to maintain both financially and technically, some of these later jets some GOVERNMENTS can't afford to fund the running costs and maintenance !

[Mark_Pilkington]

Very very very few will be able to afford an F-16 , F-18 or F-15 when these are all retired as the level of cost are on another much higher level again. For example where is a flying example of an F-14 now , can you even buy any of these aircraft in the future or will they be all shredded ?

Piston engined and early jet warbirds are still in the realms of a moderately wealthy person to maintain both financially and technically, some of these later jets some GOVERNMENTS can't afford to fund the running costs and maintenance !

I think we will see three effects combine to ensure we dont see these 2nd and 3rd generation jet fighters enter private ownership and warbird activities.

Firstly the US Government appears to reserving disposal control on not only its own examples but also those sold to allies, I suspect few will be sold intact in the future, and even static examples for museums may be more difficult to obtain than the surplus aircraft after WW2 or the disposal of 1st and 2nd generation jets.

Secondly I think the technical support will be much harder, both in access to expertise and spare parts, but also in relation to manufacturer and regulator certification support and airframe component life.

Finally the operating costs in simple fuel burn per hour will limit the few likely operators to a handful of very rich enthusiasts, this will not be a repeat of the war suplus T6 and Mustang environment that started the modern warbird movement.

Getting back on topic, in Australia the owner of a private historic building can be restrained from altering or damaging it if listed on the historic register, and regulated through planning permits in terms of authorised modifications and restorations.

I do wonder if the same will eventually be extended to moveable cultural heritage, we have laws that stop certain objects from being exported by new owners, but not from being dragged out into a paddock and set alight by their existing owner?

I think it would be reasonable for a Government to compulsorily acquire an aircraft (or other cultural heritage object) of such great historic importance that it was considered of impending risk in the hands of its current owner, and protect it for future generations, and obviously there would need to be full financial compensation to the affected owner.

However I think the number of aircraft (and other cultural heritage objects) that could fall into that category would be very few indeed, and such legal outcomes will never realistically develop, as the portfolio risk is not large enough to encourage any such legislation, and by the time any single object's risk was so great and real to encourage such legislation, that object would already be a cremated pile of soot in the paddock before any law was passed, let alone invoked.

The more logical outcome is for National Museum's to buy them through market forces, as they become available, or through making an offer "that cant be resisted", and place them in public collections, which does happen today already.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Last edited by Mark_Pilkington on Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

[A2C]

I think we will see three effects combine to ensure we dont see these 2nd and 3rd generation jet fighters enter private ownership and warbird activities.

Firstly the US Government appears to reserving disposal control on not only its own examples but also those sold to allies, I suspect few will be sold intact in the future, and even static examples for museums may be more difficult to obtain than the surplus aircraft after WW2 or the disposal of 1st and 2nd generation jets.

Secondly I think the technical support will be much harder, both in access to expertise and spare parts, but also in relation to manufacturer and regulator certification support and airframe component life.

Finally the operating costs in simple fuel burn per hour will limit the few likely operators to a handful of very rich enthusiasts, this will not be a repeat of the war suplus T6 and Mustang environment that started the modern warbird movement.

regards

Mark Pilkington

What about the guys who fly the F-104's? Colling's Foundation F-4?

Anything is possible.

[aseanaero]

What about the guys who fly the F-104's? Colling's Foundation F-4?

Anything is possible.

Yep and hat's off to them for doing it , that's commitment !

I think the useable warbirds of the future for 98% of enthusiasts will be aircraft like the PC-9 , PC-7 , T-6A Texan II , Aermachi S-211, BAE Hawk etc. Small jets and turboprops and of course the air force sized packages of cheap NOS spares that's released once these types are retired that makes maintenance costs much more reasonable.

[Mark_Pilkington]

What about the guys who fly the F-104's? Colling's Foundation F-4?

Anything is possible.

Yes anything is possible, but that doesnt mean its probable.

F104's are more second generation than 3rd generation, and the F-4 is more the exception rather than the rule for 3rd generation aircraft, (as are the handful of A4's and solitary Mirage)

We have one Vulcan and one B-29 flying, but they dont prove others will ever duplicate that feat.

Just because we want it, doesnt mean its going to happen, especially if we dont have the ability to do it, and fund it ourselves.

regards

Mark Pilkington