How to trace the history of a USN aircraft?
Sun May 31, 2009 9:59 pm
I would like to trace the history of a former US Navy Twin Beech. According to the cockpit data plate, the aircraft is a TC-45J, the Bu. No. is 4725, it was built in 1941 as an SNB-5, and it was overhauled in 1964 at NAS Pensacola. Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Cheers,
Re: How to trace the history of a USN aircraft?
Sun May 31, 2009 10:22 pm
k5dh wrote:I would like to trace the history of a former US Navy Twin Beech. According to the cockpit data plate, the aircraft is a TC-45J, the Bu. No. is 4725, it was built in 1941 as an SNB-5, and it was overhauled in 1964 at NAS Pensacola. Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Go here: http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/arch/co ... istory.cfm
James
Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:14 am
Dean,
Double check the BuNo; there's something that may not be quite right with the one which you quote. Baughers' site shows 4725 being assigned within a block of Brewster F3A-1 Corsairs. Could 4725 possibly be the construction number?
Double check the BuNo; there's something that may not be quite right with the one which you quote. Baughers' site shows 4725 being assigned within a block of Brewster F3A-1 Corsairs. Could 4725 possibly be the construction number?
Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:52 am
Hello,
The four digit number is the Beechcraft construction number. The Navy Bureau number will be different as well as the model type.
The SNB-5/TC-45J wasn't built in 1941 but post WWII. Most all of the SNB-5/TC-45J's were WWII aircraft that were rebuilt and modernized for the military at the Beech factory. Even though they kept the bureau number it is likely that there is very little of the original airframe that remains on your aircraft. A whole new fuselage and wing center section was built and reconditioned engines, wings tail were installed.
The aircraft built in 1941 for example may have been an SNB-2 which after the modernization came out as an SNB-5. In the late 60's the designation was changed in the tri-service program to the present TC-45J.
As far as a history of your specific aircraft I would recommend asking the leading Beech 18 historian Bob Parmerter. If you send me an e-mail I will give you his e-mail address. Bob has an electronic file of every Beech 18 and will have the full military and civil history of your Beech. Bob also has written a great book about the Beech 18 which is well worth the purchase price.
The four digit number is the Beechcraft construction number. The Navy Bureau number will be different as well as the model type.
The SNB-5/TC-45J wasn't built in 1941 but post WWII. Most all of the SNB-5/TC-45J's were WWII aircraft that were rebuilt and modernized for the military at the Beech factory. Even though they kept the bureau number it is likely that there is very little of the original airframe that remains on your aircraft. A whole new fuselage and wing center section was built and reconditioned engines, wings tail were installed.
The aircraft built in 1941 for example may have been an SNB-2 which after the modernization came out as an SNB-5. In the late 60's the designation was changed in the tri-service program to the present TC-45J.
As far as a history of your specific aircraft I would recommend asking the leading Beech 18 historian Bob Parmerter. If you send me an e-mail I will give you his e-mail address. Bob has an electronic file of every Beech 18 and will have the full military and civil history of your Beech. Bob also has written a great book about the Beech 18 which is well worth the purchase price.
Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:35 pm
Taigh,
Thanks for the great info! I probably should have contacted you first, since you're our resident Twin Beech expert!
I was wondering about the Bu.No. I've never seen a 4-digit number, but that's how it appears on the data plate on the bulkhead behind the pilot's seat. We haven't found the "real" data plate yet (the key to the boarding door padlock is "M.I.A." at the moment, so we can't get inside the fuselage -- D'OH!!!). It's not on the outside of the airframe, but someone told us that it may be in the door jamb of the boarding door or somewhere else inside the fuselage. I'm so antsy to find it that I've thought about cutting the lock off and just buying the Museum a new one!
If anyone's interested, there's more info and a couple of photos over in the Maintenance Hanger (sic) section of WIX under the Chuckie thread.
Please PM me Bob's email address, and I'll contact him for more help.
Cheers,
Thanks for the great info! I probably should have contacted you first, since you're our resident Twin Beech expert!
I was wondering about the Bu.No. I've never seen a 4-digit number, but that's how it appears on the data plate on the bulkhead behind the pilot's seat. We haven't found the "real" data plate yet (the key to the boarding door padlock is "M.I.A." at the moment, so we can't get inside the fuselage -- D'OH!!!). It's not on the outside of the airframe, but someone told us that it may be in the door jamb of the boarding door or somewhere else inside the fuselage. I'm so antsy to find it that I've thought about cutting the lock off and just buying the Museum a new one!
If anyone's interested, there's more info and a couple of photos over in the Maintenance Hanger (sic) section of WIX under the Chuckie thread.
Please PM me Bob's email address, and I'll contact him for more help.
Cheers,
Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:18 pm
Google is our friend. It points us to web sites that answer our questions. . . 
I got some good information on our Twin Beech from Joe Baugher's web site as well as history.navy.mil and a few other sites:
Both Baugher and the Navy list BuNo 4725 as being a JRB-2. There were 15 JRB-2s made (BuNos 4711 thru 4725). The Navy says they were all transfers from the Army; other web sites mention this as well. All JRB-2s were returned to Beech in 1951 to be heavily rebuilt into SNB-5s. The SNB-5 was known as the Navigator (the JRB-2 may also have had that name, but I can't confirm this). In 1962, surviving SNB-5s were given the Tri-Service standard designation of TC-45J. SNB-5/TC-45J were indeed used as navigation and communication trainers.
I found a black and white photo of JRB-2 BuNo 4721. It appears to be overall natural aluminum, with minimal markings. The US insignia visible on the bottom of the left wing was the white circle with blue star with the red "meatball" in the center. On the fuselage was "U.S. NAVY". On the vertical was "4721", and behind that on the rudder was "JRB-2". No other markings were visible in that photo. I assume our ship must have looked the same at that time. The ship in the photo has prop spinners fitted, and they are painted some dark color, possibly blue or black.
I'll keep hunting for more information, now that I'm on the right track.
Cheers,
I got some good information on our Twin Beech from Joe Baugher's web site as well as history.navy.mil and a few other sites:
Both Baugher and the Navy list BuNo 4725 as being a JRB-2. There were 15 JRB-2s made (BuNos 4711 thru 4725). The Navy says they were all transfers from the Army; other web sites mention this as well. All JRB-2s were returned to Beech in 1951 to be heavily rebuilt into SNB-5s. The SNB-5 was known as the Navigator (the JRB-2 may also have had that name, but I can't confirm this). In 1962, surviving SNB-5s were given the Tri-Service standard designation of TC-45J. SNB-5/TC-45J were indeed used as navigation and communication trainers.
I found a black and white photo of JRB-2 BuNo 4721. It appears to be overall natural aluminum, with minimal markings. The US insignia visible on the bottom of the left wing was the white circle with blue star with the red "meatball" in the center. On the fuselage was "U.S. NAVY". On the vertical was "4721", and behind that on the rudder was "JRB-2". No other markings were visible in that photo. I assume our ship must have looked the same at that time. The ship in the photo has prop spinners fitted, and they are painted some dark color, possibly blue or black.
I'll keep hunting for more information, now that I'm on the right track.
Cheers,
Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:29 pm
Cut the lock, havea replacement handy, and turn the key in
Dean< can you share tha website addy with us?
Dean< can you share tha website addy with us?
Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:02 pm
gary1954,
The photo is at :
http://www.historicaircraft.org/Navy-Aircraft/pages/Beechcraft-JRB2.html
Another photo and a lot of info is at:
http://www.microworks.net/pacific/aviation/jrb_expedition.htm
Google is indeed our friend.
Walt
The photo is at :
http://www.historicaircraft.org/Navy-Aircraft/pages/Beechcraft-JRB2.html
Another photo and a lot of info is at:
http://www.microworks.net/pacific/aviation/jrb_expedition.htm
Google is indeed our friend.
Walt
Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:26 pm
Today I received an email from Craig Thorson regarding JRB-2 BuNo 4725:
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Dean,
This is interesting. The online photograph you found of 4721 does indeed appear correct but I believe it is actually 4725 and has been "photoshopped." Here's why. Take a look at this photograph from my copy of, U.S. Navy Aircraft 1921-1941, by William T. Larkins:
Look familiar? Compare this one with the online version you found. Tell me if you think I'm wrong but the blades of grass, cloud formations, photo angle - everything looks the same to me. And it's your BuNo4725 to boot! By the way, all the other photographs in the book of Navy and Marine JRB's look about the same as far as markings go.
I'm on the North side of Fort Worth not too far from Meacham so, I'm going to have to plan and come see this one sometime.
Regards,
Craig Thorson
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After comparing the two photos, I do believe the one in Larkins' book is 4725, and the one on the internet has been altered, perhaps to avoid a potential copyright infringement (real or perceived). Just a guess, of course.
This aviation archaeology stuff is a lot of fun!!!!
Cheers,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dean,
This is interesting. The online photograph you found of 4721 does indeed appear correct but I believe it is actually 4725 and has been "photoshopped." Here's why. Take a look at this photograph from my copy of, U.S. Navy Aircraft 1921-1941, by William T. Larkins:
Look familiar? Compare this one with the online version you found. Tell me if you think I'm wrong but the blades of grass, cloud formations, photo angle - everything looks the same to me. And it's your BuNo4725 to boot! By the way, all the other photographs in the book of Navy and Marine JRB's look about the same as far as markings go.
I'm on the North side of Fort Worth not too far from Meacham so, I'm going to have to plan and come see this one sometime.
Regards,
Craig Thorson
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
After comparing the two photos, I do believe the one in Larkins' book is 4725, and the one on the internet has been altered, perhaps to avoid a potential copyright infringement (real or perceived). Just a guess, of course.
This aviation archaeology stuff is a lot of fun!!!!
Cheers,
Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:56 pm
Man I love this website! Where else can you get that kind of information in such a short period of time? Thank you Craig and everyone else on WIX!
Great job Dean!
Great job Dean!
Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:57 am
JRB-2 BuNo 4725 had the acceptance date 29/9/41.
My records start in 1950 when it was with NARTU Anancostia, then
Pool Buaer M&S, Wichita, 15/8/50
Redesignated SNB-5, 2/11/51
O&R Buaer M&S, San Diego, 3/11/51
VC-3, Moffett Field, 16/11/51
O&R Buaer M&S, San Diego, 28/12/53
O&R Buaer M&S, Pensacola, 7/1/54
O&R Buaer M&S, San Diego, 4/6/54
FASRON 4, San Diego, 15/6/54
FASRON 11, Atsugi, 6/8/54
HEDRON MWSG 17, Itami, 23/8/54
H&HS 1ST MAW, Pohang, 6/9/54
FASRON 11, Atsugi, 7/6/56
NAF ADV Base, Oppama, 15/6/56
O&R Buaer FA, Alameda, 9/7/56
O&R Buaer FA, Pensacola, 17/1/57
NAAS Mustin Field, 15/8/57
NAS Johnsville, 30/1/58
O&R BUWEPS FR, Pensacola, 27/9/60
TRARON 6, Whiting Field, 20/3/61
Redsignated TC-45J, 30/11/62
O&R BUWEPS FR, Pensacola, 16/4/64
NAF Andrews, 14/10/64
Redsignated UC-45J 30/11/64
NAS Quonset Point, 3/10/67
Struck off charge as service life complete, 22/5/68
Total Time 13198 hours
My records start in 1950 when it was with NARTU Anancostia, then
Pool Buaer M&S, Wichita, 15/8/50
Redesignated SNB-5, 2/11/51
O&R Buaer M&S, San Diego, 3/11/51
VC-3, Moffett Field, 16/11/51
O&R Buaer M&S, San Diego, 28/12/53
O&R Buaer M&S, Pensacola, 7/1/54
O&R Buaer M&S, San Diego, 4/6/54
FASRON 4, San Diego, 15/6/54
FASRON 11, Atsugi, 6/8/54
HEDRON MWSG 17, Itami, 23/8/54
H&HS 1ST MAW, Pohang, 6/9/54
FASRON 11, Atsugi, 7/6/56
NAF ADV Base, Oppama, 15/6/56
O&R Buaer FA, Alameda, 9/7/56
O&R Buaer FA, Pensacola, 17/1/57
NAAS Mustin Field, 15/8/57
NAS Johnsville, 30/1/58
O&R BUWEPS FR, Pensacola, 27/9/60
TRARON 6, Whiting Field, 20/3/61
Redsignated TC-45J, 30/11/62
O&R BUWEPS FR, Pensacola, 16/4/64
NAF Andrews, 14/10/64
Redsignated UC-45J 30/11/64
NAS Quonset Point, 3/10/67
Struck off charge as service life complete, 22/5/68
Total Time 13198 hours
Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:49 am
SIDSIKO,
Like I said, I love this website and all the brain power that's here! Can I ask what the source of your information is? I just want to be able to say something better than "I got this from a guy on the internet." I have no doubt as to the accuracy of the information, it's just that if we ever are able to get it airworthy, the total airframe hours will need to be confirmed and this will help. Also do you have any definitions for the Navy acronyms? Like what is "O&R" and "M&S" and "H&HS". I'm an old Air Force guy and am not familiar with those Navy acronyms. I'll bet somewhere there's a Navy acronym that's longer than what it's trying to abbreviate!!
What is it with VFM airplanes not having the first years of thier history in the records?
Like I said, I love this website and all the brain power that's here! Can I ask what the source of your information is? I just want to be able to say something better than "I got this from a guy on the internet." I have no doubt as to the accuracy of the information, it's just that if we ever are able to get it airworthy, the total airframe hours will need to be confirmed and this will help. Also do you have any definitions for the Navy acronyms? Like what is "O&R" and "M&S" and "H&HS". I'm an old Air Force guy and am not familiar with those Navy acronyms. I'll bet somewhere there's a Navy acronym that's longer than what it's trying to abbreviate!!
What is it with VFM airplanes not having the first years of thier history in the records?
Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:51 am
I clicked "Submit" before saying THANK YOU SIDSIKO!!
Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:07 am
Cool! She did a tour in Japan!
Thanks for the info, SIDSIKO!
Now, like CrewDawg said, how's about someone translating those USN acronyms?
Cheers,
Thanks for the info, SIDSIKO!
Now, like CrewDawg said, how's about someone translating those USN acronyms?
Cheers,
Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:35 pm
Glad the information was of use to you.
It is taken from my collection of US Navy History Cards on microfilm, which I have covering most BuNo's from 1950 onwards. I am able to trace the history of nearly any USN or USMC aircraft from 1950 to 1985. I will try and work out what all the abbreviations mean, but O&R is Overhaul and Repair.
It is taken from my collection of US Navy History Cards on microfilm, which I have covering most BuNo's from 1950 onwards. I am able to trace the history of nearly any USN or USMC aircraft from 1950 to 1985. I will try and work out what all the abbreviations mean, but O&R is Overhaul and Repair.