B-17 Tour question.
Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:18 am
Just wondering if any one could shed some light on a question I have had for a while now...
The Collings Birds and EAA's Aluminum Overcast have visited NJ about the same time each year. One thing I have wondered is why do they seem to tour the same airports within days of each other? Looking at the schedules it looks like they hopscotch between airports.
Dosent this effect the ride business? Is it just coincidence that they happen to cross paths?
I am looking forward to seeing both this summer.
The Collings Birds and EAA's Aluminum Overcast have visited NJ about the same time each year. One thing I have wondered is why do they seem to tour the same airports within days of each other? Looking at the schedules it looks like they hopscotch between airports.
Dosent this effect the ride business? Is it just coincidence that they happen to cross paths?
I am looking forward to seeing both this summer.
Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:00 am
Thinking the same thing. On the 17 -19th July Collings will be at Anoka and Yankee Lady will be at our Wings of the North show at Flying Cloud. Golden wings Museum did put out a real nice flyier that has both of us on it.
Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:43 am
And Aluminum Overcast is at AWAM this weekend. So the visits (EAA and Collings) to Blaine Airport may not be within days of each other, but do fall within the same month.
I would guess the hosting facilities availability has more to do about the visits/scheduling.
I would guess the hosting facilities availability has more to do about the visits/scheduling.
Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:51 am
As the one who gets the pleasure of putting together The Wings of Freedom Tour I can tell you there are hundreds of factors that dictate the location and timing of a tour. When putting together a 110 city tour with the smallest moves between cities (those flights are expensive with no way to raise revenue on them) there is a particular route around the country that works with the weather, and a certain time of the year it can be done. We can not be in MN in Jan., Feb, and March, and it would be tough to be in Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico in July or August. We are very open with our routing, and by taking a look at our website you can see our route and timing for the past 8 years. It is very consistant. It seems that the past few years that has come back to bite us in the rear because it seems that other B-17 tours have started planning their tours to be in the same areas just ahead of The Wings of Freedom Tour. It used to be just CF and EAA, but now there are at least 2 other B-17's on tour that visit a significant number of the same cities.
There is a limited weather window, espically for the cities further North, but there are more than enough large cities that would be willing to host the various aircraft tours. Although over the past couple of years the number of cities has decreased because some of the larger cities without secondary airports can not be visited because of increased security at the major air carrier airports.
As for the situation in the Minneapolis area, it seems that WOTN decided to change their air show from the August dates that it has been the past 4 or 5 years, to a date in July. YAF has been part of that show for the past few years, and committed to the show even with the earlier dates without knowing that The Wings of Freedom Tour would be in town that same weekend. When we put together stops 5 or 6 months in advance, it is hard to find all of the events that are going on that same weekend in that area. We have to take info account not only other aviation events, but large sporting events like NASCAR, NFL, NBA, and even school vacation weeks. It makes it even harder when established shows make significant changes to their dates. There is very little communication between the groups, so the only indication we have of where the other groups are going to be is their website/mailings that they publish.
There is a certain amount of flexibilty in the tour dates, but only 1-2 weeks. It we shift dates the dates by one week to put another week between the EAA visit to the same area and our visit, it means the tour stops 2-3 months down the road may be conflicting with an event like Wings Of The North. We have recently held back on how far in advance we put our schedule together so that we can avoid visiting the same areas as 1-2 other B-17 tours, but there are always going to be cities with multiple visits each year. All we can do is try to spread them out as much as possible, but still hit a window of good weather. For the most part the weather follows patterns from year to year, and the longer these tours operate the more intune the operators become with weather the patterns around the country.
There is a limited weather window, espically for the cities further North, but there are more than enough large cities that would be willing to host the various aircraft tours. Although over the past couple of years the number of cities has decreased because some of the larger cities without secondary airports can not be visited because of increased security at the major air carrier airports.
As for the situation in the Minneapolis area, it seems that WOTN decided to change their air show from the August dates that it has been the past 4 or 5 years, to a date in July. YAF has been part of that show for the past few years, and committed to the show even with the earlier dates without knowing that The Wings of Freedom Tour would be in town that same weekend. When we put together stops 5 or 6 months in advance, it is hard to find all of the events that are going on that same weekend in that area. We have to take info account not only other aviation events, but large sporting events like NASCAR, NFL, NBA, and even school vacation weeks. It makes it even harder when established shows make significant changes to their dates. There is very little communication between the groups, so the only indication we have of where the other groups are going to be is their website/mailings that they publish.
There is a certain amount of flexibilty in the tour dates, but only 1-2 weeks. It we shift dates the dates by one week to put another week between the EAA visit to the same area and our visit, it means the tour stops 2-3 months down the road may be conflicting with an event like Wings Of The North. We have recently held back on how far in advance we put our schedule together so that we can avoid visiting the same areas as 1-2 other B-17 tours, but there are always going to be cities with multiple visits each year. All we can do is try to spread them out as much as possible, but still hit a window of good weather. For the most part the weather follows patterns from year to year, and the longer these tours operate the more intune the operators become with weather the patterns around the country.
Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:10 am
kmiles... Thank you that was just the kind of info I was looking for.
Silly me of course it was more complicated than I first thought.
Thanks, I look forward to seeing the Wings of Freedom birds when they come to visit.
Silly me of course it was more complicated than I first thought.
Thanks, I look forward to seeing the Wings of Freedom birds when they come to visit.
Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:20 am
Sounds good to me. I'm going to sneak off from flying cloud and run up to anoka for awhile to enjoy 909. I really think you can never have to many warbirds in an area. And wotn changed the dates because we have gotton washed out to many times and cash gets alittle tight.
Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:49 am
So the EAA and CF birds are arriving in NJ this week.
Just wondering who I should say hello to when I go check the planes out.
Just wondering who I should say hello to when I go check the planes out.
Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:33 am
Cool to know KMiles! I have always wondered why the tour goes to Heber, Ut when they are so high in altitude and it seems like it presents a tough fuel/weight issue to deal with. Wendover is so much nicer in that respect, nice LONG approach - get a full load of fuel and no fast climbout needed 
Tom P.
Tom P.
Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:13 pm
wendovertom wrote:Cool to know KMiles! I have always wondered why the tour goes to Heber, Ut when they are so high in altitude and it seems like it presents a tough fuel/weight issue to deal with. Wendover is so much nicer in that respect, nice LONG approach - get a full load of fuel and no fast climbout needed
Tom P.
As the guy who got the pleasure of putting it together before Ken... I can answer that one with a simple, yet unfortunate, statement...
If there was a way you could transport those SLC and Park City, UT "folding money abundant" folks to Wendover... well, there you go.
Of course, I know you know that too... and from a practical standpoint... those extra 100 miles adds a bit too.
I know there are folks in Montana that feel left out too... and the Dakotas...
Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:17 pm
Ryan,
yeah - I know it - although we have had pretty decent response with enough prior to visit marketing. . . still I know whatyou are saying only to well.
Tom P.
yeah - I know it - although we have had pretty decent response with enough prior to visit marketing. . . still I know whatyou are saying only to well.
Tom P.
Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:06 pm
You know, Tom, a couple 1000 gallons of free 100LL would sure help get their attention ! 
Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:14 pm
They're coming tomorrow (Colins) with the Mustang to my area. Would like to see the 262, but I have no faith in that. I love this time, they're just small enough not to attract to many "know it alls", but still able to enjoy the show.