Cost effective trainer?

[BHawthorne]

A few years down the road I'm thinking on rebuilding a trainer of some sort back to flight readiness. How plausible is something like a T-28? I've seen them available in project form for around $25k. What sort of final cost and yearly maintenance cost would something like this entail? I'd rather rebuild something instead of doing a kit replica. Is doing a T-28 project feasible for an individual with time to burn?

Before I get my hopes up any I'm doing research on just how realistic a goal this would be?

I have my F-84F fuselage to learn things on and as that'll never fly again I'm not so worried about sharpening my machine shop skills on it first.

[Matt Gunsch]

A T-28 would be a huge first time project. If you have not restored a plane to flying condition, I would recomend starting out on something like a L-5, then maybe a T-6 or BT.

[BHawthorne]

Any suggestions are appreciated. Just by looking over my F-84F technical drawings set I can start to grasp how many years something like this would take. That doesn't really scare me off (yet).

Alternatively, I've pondered rebuilding the F-84F, but no way I could afford the upkeep on that thing for flight, so it's purely a source for learning sheet metal skills.

I've got access to a 4x4 waterjet, a few 3 axis VMCs and an engine lathe along with a welding booth so that should help some.

[Matt Gunsch]

if that doesn't scare you, maybe this will. A engine for a 28 will set you back at leat 30,000 if not more, that is not including the baffles exhaust and other goodies, and a prop will be between 10-15,000, those are really best guess prices as I have not had to look for any of them for a long time.

[Tinker51]

if that doesn't scare you, maybe this will. A engine for a 28 will set you back at leat 30,000 if not more,

Keep going. Especially if you don't have a rebuildable core.

[BHawthorne]

So T-6 is a more reasonable goal?

[Avn-Tech]

Group,

Restoring an L-5 takes differt skills (wood & Fabric), then restoring a BT-13 or T-6 (metal).

Purchasing an L-5 project is cheaper, and once restored the L-5 is probably cheapesr per hour to operate then a BT-13/T-6.

You may want to think about buying something like a Yak-52 or CJ-6 as ane entry level warbird. My L-5 project cost about $12K and still needs restored. My Yak-52 cost $35K and flew home.

Good Luck
Avn-Tech

[Matt Gunsch]

Yes,
it is a much simpler aircraft, parts are easy to get, support is there from lots of sources. engines and props are still costly, but not as much as a 28. Also you do not require a LOA to fly a 6, but you would need one to fly a big engine 28.

[jet1]

the culver kadet

[Cvairwerks]

One of the questions that you need to answer accurately for yourself is whether you want to restore and fly it, or are you dedicated to a longterm project that won't necessarily fly for many years if ever.
The arena is littered with projects that have languished for way too long due to numerous reasons. Probably the biggest is taking on too much of a project with unrealistic plans and budgets out of sync with reality.

If you want to restore and fly, then I would suggest starting with something that is easy to restore and should things go badly and you have to dump it, it would have decent resale capability. If you get it done, then you have something to fly and have stepped up your skills levels and are ready to move on to something more complicated.

Here is a partial list of project candidates for the non-hard core restorer in somewhat of an increasing skills needs:

C-150/152
J-3/135 Super Cub/L-4
C-172/175/177 fixed gear
L-5
L-17
U-3
UC-17
Stinson 108
PT-19/23/26
BT-13/15
Stearman
T-6
Staggerwing

I listed the spam cans due to parts availability and potential resale as well as the ability for a beginning restorer to get them done and in the air without significant heartburn and with reasonably decent support and cost counciousness. One thing that seems to confound many neophyte restorers/owners is that the $ required to do the job correctly and make the bird safe and minimize maintenance costs, approaches a cubic function vs design complexity. It can be very disheartning to spend thousands of hours and dollars on a project then find a gotcha that sets you back as much time or more and similarly on the $. A good example would be the PT-19 series. There are lots of projects out there, but a significant number of them need new center section spars. The spars are reasonably complicated and will require lots of time and effort to scratch build a new set as well as a large capital outlay. There are probably less than 50 people in the US that would even tackle building new spars and it would require such an outlay of cash for the work, it would scare you, and that assumes that you could get someone to take it on. By the time it was flying, the owner could have probably bought a flyer and fueled for several hundred hours of flying.

Evaluate what your desires are, truthfully assess your skills, time and finances and then get a second opinion and then and only then start shopping for a project and don't get into a hurry and jump on the first one that comes along unless it has some special attraction. If there is a type club or association for what you are interested in, join and absorb all the info that you can.

[PbyCat-Guy]

Can a non A&P rated person restore an airplane and then have an IA sign off the work?

[sdennison]

One of the questions that you need to answer accurately for yourself is whether you want to restore and fly it, or are you dedicated to a longterm project that won't necessarily fly for many years if ever.
The arena is littered with projects that have languished for way too long due to numerous reasons. Probably the biggest is taking on too much of a project with unrealistic plans and budgets out of sync with reality.

If you want to restore and fly, then I would suggest starting with something that is easy to restore and should things go badly and you have to dump it, it would have decent resale capability. If you get it done, then you have something to fly and have stepped up your skills levels and are ready to move on to something more complicated.

Here is a partial list of project candidates for the non-hard core restorer in somewhat of an increasing skills needs:

C-150/152
J-3/135 Super Cub/L-4
C-172/175/177 fixed gear
L-5
L-17
U-3
UC-17
Stinson 108
PT-19/23/26
BT-13/15
Stearman
T-6
Staggerwing

I listed the spam cans due to parts availability and potential resale as well as the ability for a beginning restorer to get them done and in the air without significant heartburn and with reasonably decent support and cost counciousness. One thing that seems to confound many neophyte restorers/owners is that the $ required to do the job correctly and make the bird safe and minimize maintenance costs, approaches a cubic function vs design complexity. It can be very disheartning to spend thousands of hours and dollars on a project then find a gotcha that sets you back as much time or more and similarly on the $. A good example would be the PT-19 series. There are lots of projects out there, but a significant number of them need new center section spars. The spars are reasonably complicated and will require lots of time and effort to scratch build a new set as well as a large capital outlay. There are probably less than 50 people in the US that would even tackle building new spars and it would require such an outlay of cash for the work, it would scare you, and that assumes that you could get someone to take it on. By the time it was flying, the owner could have probably bought a flyer and fueled for several hundred hours of flying.

Evaluate what your desires are, truthfully assess your skills, time and finances and then get a second opinion and then and only then start shopping for a project and don't get into a hurry and jump on the first one that comes along unless it has some special attraction. If there is a type club or association for what you are interested in, join and absorb all the info that you can.

Well put. You can get a great PT-19/23/26 for under $75K and have a ball. Otherwise, my favorite saying is "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" It applied all through my racing career and will apply to my flying as well.

Budget first, skills second.

[bdk]

Can a non A&P rated person restore an airplane and then have an IA sign off the work?

An individual can do it under supervision, but an IA should not be signing off work he does not have intimate knowledge of.

the culver kadet

I owned a Culver Cadet, flew it once. If you are over 5'6" and 135 pounds, good luck! It is like flying a model airplane from the inside.

if that doesn't scare you, maybe this will. A engine for a 28 will set you back at leat 30,000 if not more, that is not including the baffles exhaust and other goodies, and a prop will be between 10-15,000, those are really best guess prices as I have not had to look for any of them for a long time.

That might get you a T-6 overhaul and a prop outright. Probably another $7500 for an engine core- the value is in the crank really.

T-6 is probably more work to restore than a P-51, but most parts are readily available. My advice to you is to buy one already flying unless you really want to do this. You won't save money by buying a derelict and restoring it yourself, especially if you consider the time value of money and the cost of shop space/storage.

Last edited by bdk on Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[ZRX61]

That might get you a T-6 overhaul and a prop outright. Probably another $7500 for an engine core- the value is in the crank really.

I just swapped out 2 T6 engines & they were both right around $32-35K exchange (Covingtons).

[BHawthorne]

Good info. I need to look at my motivations. Building something is probably my first motivation and flying second. I can understand how buying someone else project almost complete or buying already flying makes the most sense though as far as cost.

It might just make the most sense for me to just continue the F-84F as complete as I can get it. Sure, that'll never fly but I can still interface it with a pc simulator. Ultimately, that's about the safest warbird flying I can do even though it's not really flying.