Mystery Mustang-y type thing in Pacific - what's this??
Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:05 pm
I have copied the post below from my forum, as I'm sure soome of you Mustang fans might want to join in here:
http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?ac ... hread=9836
Below - as posted:
Over the weekend I finally got to visit a lady who kindly offered her late husband's collection of photos to me to scan. Kerry (fockewulf) came with me and we borrowed the album, and Kerry has kindly scanned the photos for me.
Some very interesting things arise. This is the photo collection of the late Neville Jackson, who flew two tours on No. 21 Squadron RNZAF Corsairs, and was preparing for his third tour at Ardmore when the war ended.
Now, to the more unusual shots we've found. This is a bit of a mystery. It looks like a very early Mustang, with long cannons, a long spinner, RAF-style roundels over US Stars and Bars (?)... any clues what this is?
http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?ac ... hread=9836
Below - as posted:
Over the weekend I finally got to visit a lady who kindly offered her late husband's collection of photos to me to scan. Kerry (fockewulf) came with me and we borrowed the album, and Kerry has kindly scanned the photos for me.
Some very interesting things arise. This is the photo collection of the late Neville Jackson, who flew two tours on No. 21 Squadron RNZAF Corsairs, and was preparing for his third tour at Ardmore when the war ended.
Now, to the more unusual shots we've found. This is a bit of a mystery. It looks like a very early Mustang, with long cannons, a long spinner, RAF-style roundels over US Stars and Bars (?)... any clues what this is?
Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:14 pm
I don't think it is a real aircraft.
Looks like a model aircraft photographed over a cloudy background.
Looks very similar to the famous "faked" WWI photgraphs from the 1920's.
There are to many inconsistencies in the aircraft's shape, ie: wing tips and tail surfaces look a bit "rounded. The US was not using the Star and bar on both wings when that version of the P-51 came out. Also, the cannons are mis-shapen and the canopy looks almost non-existent.
Jerry
Looks like a model aircraft photographed over a cloudy background.
Looks very similar to the famous "faked" WWI photgraphs from the 1920's.
There are to many inconsistencies in the aircraft's shape, ie: wing tips and tail surfaces look a bit "rounded. The US was not using the Star and bar on both wings when that version of the P-51 came out. Also, the cannons are mis-shapen and the canopy looks almost non-existent.
Jerry
Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:31 pm
Rather like Jerry's said, it's almost certainly a recognition (or other) model mocked up as a Commonwealth 'Mustang' in mis-read Pacific colours, with the roundel and bar on both wings rather than one.
Probably created as an illustration for a briefing ("This is the shape of the Mustang, gentlemen.") or planning process, possibly for a bit of fun, but it's too well done for the latter IMHO. Using an RAF Mustang Mk.II model, rather than the later low back and or cannonless wing.
Probably created from two photos, one of the model, either painted or the photo retouched with the markings, and another of a skyscape, combined in the darkroom. The apparent absence of the canopy, normally 'solid' on models of the period is a big clue.
Probably created as an illustration for a briefing ("This is the shape of the Mustang, gentlemen.") or planning process, possibly for a bit of fun, but it's too well done for the latter IMHO. Using an RAF Mustang Mk.II model, rather than the later low back and or cannonless wing.
Probably created from two photos, one of the model, either painted or the photo retouched with the markings, and another of a skyscape, combined in the darkroom. The apparent absence of the canopy, normally 'solid' on models of the period is a big clue.
Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:59 pm
James is correct, Recognition Model of an early 20mm cannon Mustang. The RNZAF roundels had the US-style " bars " added very late in the war.
New Zealand ordered 320 P-51 Mustangs as a partial replacement of its F4U Corsairs in the Pacific Ocean Areas theatre. Thirty were delivered in 1945 but the war ended before they entered service. The remainder were retained in the U.S. The 30 received were stored in their packing cases until 1950 when put into service with the New Zealand Territorial Air Force (TAF)'s Auckland, Wellington, Canterbury and Otago squadrons. The TAF was disbanded in 1957 and the Mustangs retired, one being retained by 42 Squadron for regular target towing duties, and the remainder being sold for scrap.
New Zealand ordered 320 P-51 Mustangs as a partial replacement of its F4U Corsairs in the Pacific Ocean Areas theatre. Thirty were delivered in 1945 but the war ended before they entered service. The remainder were retained in the U.S. The 30 received were stored in their packing cases until 1950 when put into service with the New Zealand Territorial Air Force (TAF)'s Auckland, Wellington, Canterbury and Otago squadrons. The TAF was disbanded in 1957 and the Mustangs retired, one being retained by 42 Squadron for regular target towing duties, and the remainder being sold for scrap.
Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:20 pm
SHAEF1944 wrote:James is correct,
Heh, Eddicated guesswork...
Also note that the roundels are also original red-blue upper wing roundels adapted, incorrectly. The 'modified' red, white, blue, yellow fuselage roundel can also still be seen, and the fin-flash which should've been restyled. (I should add RNZAF markings were different again with the RAAF and RAF type I'm reasonably comfortable with.)
Good one!
Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:41 pm
I'm very familiar with the RNZAF's Mustang's history but I didn'tthink this was trying to portray an RNZAF example at all. More an RAAF one perhaps. Not sure. There was never any need for the wartime RNZAF to have to recognise RNZAF Mustangs becuase we didn't have any flying. For the record, No. 75 Squadron RNZAF also operated a Mustang in the 1950's.
Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:02 pm
Dave Homewood wrote:I'm very familiar with the RNZAF's Mustang's history but I didn'tthink this was trying to portray an RNZAF example at all. More an RAAF one perhaps. Not sure. There was never any need for the wartime RNZAF to have to recognise RNZAF Mustangs becuase we didn't have any flying. For the record, No. 75 Squadron RNZAF also operated a Mustang in the 1950's.
Sure Dave, but this isn't about what did happen, but (possibly) what was planned to happen. The RAAF (and I think the RAF) and RNZAF all intended to operate the Mustang in the Pacific, what differed was when they arrived. Bear in mind it's a quickly, roughly adapted recognition model - either an early proposal item, or a joke, or best future estimate.
The RAAF's Mustangs and most of the RAAF never had, or intended to have the 'barred' roundel, so that scenario is unlikely, IMHO. Wasn't that roundel primarily the RN FAA and RNZAF's units?
It's also possible it was a guy with time and a darkroom...
I'd suggest its impossible from the internal evidence to draw a certain conclusion of the story behind the pic, beyond what we've discussed, unless there's any associated paperwork, or other data comes to light.
However we can conclude it's not a standard final recognition model as it's the wrong version in the wrong colours - don't overlook that recognition models used properly were black or mono-colour. This kind of thing was for other mock-up or illustrative purposes - such as recognition card photos, which sometimes required a photo printed before the aircraft eventuated.
Just thinking aloud!
Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:38 pm
ww 2 i.d. models had no national insignias or markings or colors. posters, artist renditions from training books is another story.