To buyers and sellers/manufacturers of warbird parts

[kurbelgehause]

Hello All,

I was curious what kind of certification paperwork accompanies warbird parts sold in the U.K., America or anywhere else worldwide. Are most parts sold with some kind of documentation or certs or is it a case of the buyer relying on the seller's reputation? I was wondering how strict (or not) requirements are for parts in the warbird market. Thanks for any input!

[HarvardIV]

Hi kurbelgehause:

Hello Sir:

As far as I know, there are no requirements for parts in themselves. They can even be sold as damaged and worthless. However, new made parts have strict rules.

For example, the FAR's say (in my own words) a seller can make a part to the buyer's specs. However, that part cannot be mass produced, only special made for that one specific buyer.

Chris

[snj-5]

No 8130 forms (I'm afraid) or yellow tags even for NOS
parts from Lance Aircraft Supply (T-6 parts outfit). I've
ordered a few things from Lance that showed up in the
original NAA boxes with original NAA "paperwork". The
latter might give the feds a warm-fuzzy.

In the end, your IA is on the hook for determining airworthiness
of the components/parts that go into your warbird rebuild project.

As far as newly manufactured parts go, that's covered by
FAR 21.303(b)2 (Owner Produced Parts). Perfectly legal,
as long as the rules are followed...

Bela P. Havasreti

[kurbelgehause]

Bela,

What does IA stand for?

thanks,

Ray

[HarvardIV]

Inspection Authorization. The idea is to read through the FARs, and get an IA or A&P to assist you to ensure correct assembly techniques.

[warbirddriver]

>>For example, the FAR's say (in my own words) a seller can make a part to the buyer's specs. However, that part cannot be mass produced, only special made for that one specific buyer. <<

Think you may want to read the FAR's again. They don't say that at all. There is a note aboout OWNER produced parts for his OWN airplane, but even those parts have rules and procedurers that must be followed. All parts being installed on a certified aircraft must be certified in an airworthy condition. This is done on form 8130-3, commonly known as a "yellow tag".

Please get your facts correct before you pass them off as gospel.

Glenn
A&P/IA/Aircraft owner

[HarvardIV]

Please get your facts correct before you pass them off as gospel.

If you say this to me, then quote us the FARs before you pass people off as wrong.

[dj51d]

I found a little on Owner Produced Parts at the FAA site. In short it says that while an owner can hire someone to produce a part, the owner must provide the design, manufacturing or quality control procedures.

Here is another article on owner produced parts.

[HarvardIV]

Thanks Dan:

I knew I was right.

[dj51d]

The key point is that even an owner produced part needs to be an "approved"(yellow tag) part. There are two ways to do this, to produce the new part exactly to the manufacturer's specifications, or reverse engineer the part and submit the new design for approval.

[kurbelgehause]

I assume the thread is referring to new-made parts for certified aircraft.
Are the rules the same for parts for experimental vs. certified aircraft?
Thanks to all of you for your input!

Ray

[bdk]

Are the rules the same for parts for experimental vs. certified aircraft?

To the best of my knowledge, anything that affects airworthiness on an experimental-exhibition aircraft has to be blessed by the FAA either during initial certification or upon later installation. Same as for standard category.

[warbirddriver]

>>If you say this to me, then quote us the FARs before you pass people off as wrong.<<

Suggest you take your own advice as well. I know the regs.... I work with them evey day. Suggest you get a copy and study them before you make statements and pass them off as correct when they are NOT!

[Jase]

Thanks Dan:

I knew I was right.

Actually Chris, you weren't right. What you said was "seller". The way that the specific FAR is written, the OWNER must be involved quite heavily in the process. He cannot just "order up a widget", he must PARTICIPATE in the whole process. From the referenced FAA site :"The FAA would not construe the ordering of a part, standing alone, as participating in controlling the design, manufacture, or quality of a part."

After all that is done, as Glenn said above, the airworthiness of the part must be determined. This is done for the A&P if a "yellow-tag" (Form 8130-3) is supplied with the part. If not, Part 43 speaks to the specific steps that MUST be followed. Quite frankly, it's late, I'm tired, and I do not feel interested in typing a bunch of extracts from the FAR's to prove the point. You may want to modify how you react to people correcting the erroneous info that you pass off.

Further, you are not only wrong, you are in violation of the FAR's when you say "The idea is to read through the FARs, and get an IA or A&P to assist you to ensure correct assembly techniques." The FAR's are quite clear on what a non-certificated mechanic can do. In order to comply totally with the applicable FAR's, an A&P/IA must *SUPERVISE* the work being done to whatever extent he or she deems necessary. After all, HIS name is the one in the logbook certifying the aircraft as airworthy, not yours, no matter how much or how little work you have done. It's not just correct assembly, it's also proper usage of tools, proper torque, correct rigging, acceptable prep work, and the list goes on.

If I need to post FARs again, like I did in the Spitfire thread, I will.

By the way, I can attest that Glenn/warbirddriver has a fair amount of restoration and maintenance experience on warbirds. T-6, TBF, B-25, B-18, and probly some others too.

Regards

Jase

[HarvardIV]

GO ahead and keep reading too far into things guys, and say I'm wrong at the same time if it makes you feel better.