Thoughts on Paint Scheme Discussions
Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:58 pm
I have been thinking alot about this whole paint scheme business recently. I can certainly see it from both sides, but there are two (at least) sides to this story. After working for the last 10 years to do everything I thought needed to be done to own a high performance warbird; amass enough wealth to purchase, insure, maintain and operate, as well as fly 100's of hours in T6 and other warbirds to safely fly it, I bought an AD5 Skyraider.
Part of this multi year plan involved trying to develop a plan of how to operate it in such a manner that the most possible people could enjoy it. One of the decisions that I made was that I was going to include it on the Warbird Registry and make my self as available as possible to answer questions and share what little knowledge of all things warbird that I have gained in the past few years. It is not lost on me, that not everyone who wants to own or be around these aircraft has the means or oppourtunity to get whatever they want.
I posted pictures of my airplane in it's current VMA-332 Marine paint scheme. This airplane was originally in a Navy paint scheme and reportedly the last active duty Navy bird. The airplane was repainted in VMA-332 seven years ago, a correct paint scheme for the type and year of the airplane.
Now the reason for the recent thought about this whole paint issue. I received 2 PM's from individuals including links to pictures of the airplane being operated in it's Navy markings. Both individuals went on and on about how "it's a travesty that I don't care about the airplanes true history", "that rich guys like me don't care about the originality of the warbirds anymore" etc. etc. etc.
A few thoughts about all of this:
1. The paint on this airplane is now near perfect and was horrible before it was painted. It is authentic and does not devalue the historic value of the plane.
2. It was repainted long before I bought it at a cost of about 10% of it's current value. ( more money than the first 182 that I scraped enough money together to buy). There is absolutley no reason to repaint it.
3. In this whole warbird end of the business I see far to many people telling me what I should be doing with the airplane than ever say " I'm just glad somebody cares enough to take custody of this thing and do all that it takes to keep it available to everyone else".
4. When you buy your warbird, you should be respectful of the aircraft's history but ultimately part of what comes with writing the checks is the choices that are made belong to the owner.
Please feel free to make your opinions known, I welcome it, but try to have your facts straight and be mindful of the fact that those of use who spend a good portion of our income on these planes are entitled to a least an equal opinion on how they are presented and operated.
O.K. I'm off my soap box now.
Part of this multi year plan involved trying to develop a plan of how to operate it in such a manner that the most possible people could enjoy it. One of the decisions that I made was that I was going to include it on the Warbird Registry and make my self as available as possible to answer questions and share what little knowledge of all things warbird that I have gained in the past few years. It is not lost on me, that not everyone who wants to own or be around these aircraft has the means or oppourtunity to get whatever they want.
I posted pictures of my airplane in it's current VMA-332 Marine paint scheme. This airplane was originally in a Navy paint scheme and reportedly the last active duty Navy bird. The airplane was repainted in VMA-332 seven years ago, a correct paint scheme for the type and year of the airplane.
Now the reason for the recent thought about this whole paint issue. I received 2 PM's from individuals including links to pictures of the airplane being operated in it's Navy markings. Both individuals went on and on about how "it's a travesty that I don't care about the airplanes true history", "that rich guys like me don't care about the originality of the warbirds anymore" etc. etc. etc.
A few thoughts about all of this:
1. The paint on this airplane is now near perfect and was horrible before it was painted. It is authentic and does not devalue the historic value of the plane.
2. It was repainted long before I bought it at a cost of about 10% of it's current value. ( more money than the first 182 that I scraped enough money together to buy). There is absolutley no reason to repaint it.
3. In this whole warbird end of the business I see far to many people telling me what I should be doing with the airplane than ever say " I'm just glad somebody cares enough to take custody of this thing and do all that it takes to keep it available to everyone else".
4. When you buy your warbird, you should be respectful of the aircraft's history but ultimately part of what comes with writing the checks is the choices that are made belong to the owner.
Please feel free to make your opinions known, I welcome it, but try to have your facts straight and be mindful of the fact that those of use who spend a good portion of our income on these planes are entitled to a least an equal opinion on how they are presented and operated.
O.K. I'm off my soap box now.
Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:15 pm
A definatly deserved rant on the soap box. You definatly cut it right down the middle. I understand completly what it takes to own a warbird in todays world. And if I was in your shoes, I would do the same and not repaint it until it needed it again. I have gotten such a thrill( so has my dad) to do research on an airplane and paint them back into there old military markings again. Have done it with 5 C-47's and our N3N. The icing on the cake would be to find the people who flew it and have a reunion. Soon this will happen to some Vietnam Vets that I have notified that there Hueys are still around. What a thrill
Looking foreward to seeing your SPAD in the books and maybe a airshow or 2.
Looking foreward to seeing your SPAD in the books and maybe a airshow or 2.
Paint scheme
Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:21 pm
E.D.
I must say your approach to the process seems to be a well thought out and full of common sense. Whom ever sent you those PMs has an over active sense of self importance. One of the most common questions we get with the B-25 is why don't you polish it? Or paint it? They just don't seem to understand the time or money involved. I've seen your AD-5 and it's a great looking airplane. Don't change a thing. If there comes a time to repaint then consider your options and do what makes you happy.
After all, who's paying the bills!
I think the P-51B is a special case. I think Jack Rousch could do something different considering the emotional ties the family has to it. Which makes me ask if Karen has had any contact with him and does he understand their attachment to it? I think some temporary markings are in order at least here.
My #1 personal pet peave is all the P-51s flying is the same basic paint schemes ie how many are in 352nd FG colors or 4th FG colors or 357th FG colors??? The answer is way to many. The are some many good possibilities for schemes out there to choose from. I could think of anything much more boring than walking down a line of 10 or so P-51s all painted the same....YUK! Pet peave #2 is owners doing a perfect naval paint scheme and then putting the initials on the tail that just screams EGO!
So E>D> keep up the good work you're obiviously doing something right!
I must say your approach to the process seems to be a well thought out and full of common sense. Whom ever sent you those PMs has an over active sense of self importance. One of the most common questions we get with the B-25 is why don't you polish it? Or paint it? They just don't seem to understand the time or money involved. I've seen your AD-5 and it's a great looking airplane. Don't change a thing. If there comes a time to repaint then consider your options and do what makes you happy.
After all, who's paying the bills!
I think the P-51B is a special case. I think Jack Rousch could do something different considering the emotional ties the family has to it. Which makes me ask if Karen has had any contact with him and does he understand their attachment to it? I think some temporary markings are in order at least here.
My #1 personal pet peave is all the P-51s flying is the same basic paint schemes ie how many are in 352nd FG colors or 4th FG colors or 357th FG colors??? The answer is way to many. The are some many good possibilities for schemes out there to choose from. I could think of anything much more boring than walking down a line of 10 or so P-51s all painted the same....YUK! Pet peave #2 is owners doing a perfect naval paint scheme and then putting the initials on the tail that just screams EGO!
So E>D> keep up the good work you're obiviously doing something right!
skyraider paint job
Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:26 pm
who in hell is anybody to dictate to you?? it's your spad, bought with your hard earned money & brains bottom line. i salute you in all your dreams accomplished & all you've worked for to achieve it. paint it with purple polka dots if you wish & i'll respect it. the critics are all jealous & if they used their time wisely rather than squawking about your paint job, they could reach your level of success. 
give em that from you & me both!! all the best, tom
give em that from you & me both!! all the best, tom
Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:55 pm
My question is who is to say what is the correct scheme? Skyraiders went through so many schemes over the course of there service careers that there really isn't one correct scheme. And this concept of the last Skyraider being historically significant is arbitrary and silly, why is the last one significant and the 300th Skyraider not? Should the dirt and oil stains that it had on retirement be reproduced?
When it comes down to it Mr. Downing has the right to paint it anyway he wants to, even if its pink with butterflies (please don't do this though!
)
If you want to dictate historically accurate schemes then feel free to paint your skyraider anyway you choose. But until you own the plane, just be glad there are people like Mr. Downing who are willing to share themselves and thier aircraft with us, the enthusiast.
I want to thank Mr. Downing for sharing the images of his aircraft with us and allowing thier use in the Registry.
When it comes down to it Mr. Downing has the right to paint it anyway he wants to, even if its pink with butterflies (please don't do this though!
)
If you want to dictate historically accurate schemes then feel free to paint your skyraider anyway you choose. But until you own the plane, just be glad there are people like Mr. Downing who are willing to share themselves and thier aircraft with us, the enthusiast.
I want to thank Mr. Downing for sharing the images of his aircraft with us and allowing thier use in the Registry.
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:08 pm
All I can say Eric is welcome to the world of warbirds on the internet.
There have been many times when I felt that trying to share my airplanes and flying experiences with others through WIX and other forums was a complete waste of time. The world has plenty of nut jobs, and for whatever reason warbird forums seem to collect more than their fair share. Between the anoraks, the neo-nazis (The FW-190 rules!), the self anointed experts (the Bristol Centaurus is the greatest engine ever produced, so why would you fly a bastardized, Americanized Sea Fury with a Wright 3350? ANSWER, because I like to fly rather than sit and watch a Centaurus leak oil in the hanger), the replica guys (You know, I'm building a 3/4 scale B-29 in my garage) and the rude masses (Is that the proper shade of Blue for a Marine Skyraider) it makes you wonder.
Saying all that though, two things keep me coming back.
1. A promise I made to the man who introduced me to warbirds.
2. Meeting people like you.
I had a great time seeing your Skyraider, and meeting your wife and friends. Keep your chin up, and don't let the bastards get to you.
Steve
There have been many times when I felt that trying to share my airplanes and flying experiences with others through WIX and other forums was a complete waste of time. The world has plenty of nut jobs, and for whatever reason warbird forums seem to collect more than their fair share. Between the anoraks, the neo-nazis (The FW-190 rules!), the self anointed experts (the Bristol Centaurus is the greatest engine ever produced, so why would you fly a bastardized, Americanized Sea Fury with a Wright 3350? ANSWER, because I like to fly rather than sit and watch a Centaurus leak oil in the hanger), the replica guys (You know, I'm building a 3/4 scale B-29 in my garage) and the rude masses (Is that the proper shade of Blue for a Marine Skyraider) it makes you wonder.
Saying all that though, two things keep me coming back.
1. A promise I made to the man who introduced me to warbirds.
2. Meeting people like you.
I had a great time seeing your Skyraider, and meeting your wife and friends. Keep your chin up, and don't let the bastards get to you.
Steve
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:48 pm
When we started looking for a large warbird (C-47) to fly to shows with there was a lot of talk about painting it in D-Day markings, I wanted something different and in doing some reshearch found the story of John Levitow's medal of honor action during the Vietnam war and that the first AC-47's were flown out of our airport Forbes Field in Topeka, KS. So now we knew what we wanted just had to find the C-47. Found it hauling freight in GA. bought and got it painted, thru the course of owning it we have found out that it served in the 9th AF in europe from August of 1944 till the end of the war. I hope to track down the TCG and TCS it was with at some point. The whole point of this is that we decided to paint it as an AC-47 and spent thousands of $ doing it. It will most likely remain in this scheme even after we find out what it looked like in WWII. We all just need to be thankful that there are guys interested in spending alot of time and money taking care of these planes for all to enjoy.
Spookyboss
Spookyboss
Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:02 pm
I am going thru this right now. We are adding a PBY to the collection and I have been trying to find the colors for the RCAF North Atlantic, I would like to paint it in it's original colors, but it will most likely be gloss paint, ( sorry, but I can't see a plane that big in flat and having to clean it), so it will not be "original" but it will be the markings it flew in. ( anyone got the color and layouts for a Canso circa Feb 1944 ?)
When I flew with Carl SChmieder, He had his 6 painted in the markings of the USS Essex, but he added C * S on the side of the fuselage. When he was asked what it stood for he said it had several meanings, and which one was used for which purpose:
Everyday use = Carl Schmieder
Airshow use = Cactus Squadron
Bad Weather = Chicken sugar (remove the "e" to read it correctly)
When I flew with Carl SChmieder, He had his 6 painted in the markings of the USS Essex, but he added C * S on the side of the fuselage. When he was asked what it stood for he said it had several meanings, and which one was used for which purpose:
Everyday use = Carl Schmieder
Airshow use = Cactus Squadron
Bad Weather = Chicken sugar (remove the "e" to read it correctly)
Last edited by Matt Gunsch on Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
Sergeant Pilots and history
Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:14 pm
I love history. I love airplanes. I love discussing them.
When I found out that most of the L5 pilots in WWII were Sergeant Pilots, I did a little backflip inside. I used to be a real Sergeant, and it tickled me that one of the most utilitarian pieces of aviation in the inventory in WWII was run by enlisted men. So being a former Sergeant, I thought, "Great, I'll do a WWII Staff Sergeant impression, complete with grody fatigues and Carbine, bath in the helmet, etc." But then I read about Paul Tibbets being a Liaison Pilot in WWII, and actually talked with some commissioned WWII pilots and boy, was that great too. Really impressive people.
I mention this because when you own a WWII airplane, you have so many things to stay on top of that often times the history of your plane gets lost in the shuffle. You have to maintain it, and at some point, have to decide if you want to portray one airplane in a restoration, or just be representative of the genre. I'd love to portray my airplane on D-Day, Italy, the Phillipines, and China-Burma-India. But I just can't. So I stick with the genre.
I am kicking around the idea of forming a WWII re-enacting unit around this aircraft and a few others in the locality. And there is a completely new problem. I have found history on a BUNCH of WWII Liaison Squadrons, and am just starting to understand how they were deployed in the Army units. Too much history out there to truly comprehend what is going on, and unfortunately it is poorly documented. The Army took great pains to document what happened in the 9th Tactical Air Force in France, but the specific operations of the 14th Liaison Squadron are wisps of history at best- even though it was part of the 9th AF.
Personally, I like to invite people to offer information, suggestions, and references on the L5- this is an open invitation to anybody on the board to do so. I am more inclined to spend time listening to people who are cultured, educated and respectful. I highly respect the academic efforts of people who informally and formally research warbirds, their paint, markings, and history. All I ask is that you respect with equal measure my family's efforts at spending a great proportion of our disposable income maintaining a WWII airplane.
When I found out that most of the L5 pilots in WWII were Sergeant Pilots, I did a little backflip inside. I used to be a real Sergeant, and it tickled me that one of the most utilitarian pieces of aviation in the inventory in WWII was run by enlisted men. So being a former Sergeant, I thought, "Great, I'll do a WWII Staff Sergeant impression, complete with grody fatigues and Carbine, bath in the helmet, etc." But then I read about Paul Tibbets being a Liaison Pilot in WWII, and actually talked with some commissioned WWII pilots and boy, was that great too. Really impressive people.
I mention this because when you own a WWII airplane, you have so many things to stay on top of that often times the history of your plane gets lost in the shuffle. You have to maintain it, and at some point, have to decide if you want to portray one airplane in a restoration, or just be representative of the genre. I'd love to portray my airplane on D-Day, Italy, the Phillipines, and China-Burma-India. But I just can't. So I stick with the genre.
I am kicking around the idea of forming a WWII re-enacting unit around this aircraft and a few others in the locality. And there is a completely new problem. I have found history on a BUNCH of WWII Liaison Squadrons, and am just starting to understand how they were deployed in the Army units. Too much history out there to truly comprehend what is going on, and unfortunately it is poorly documented. The Army took great pains to document what happened in the 9th Tactical Air Force in France, but the specific operations of the 14th Liaison Squadron are wisps of history at best- even though it was part of the 9th AF.
Personally, I like to invite people to offer information, suggestions, and references on the L5- this is an open invitation to anybody on the board to do so. I am more inclined to spend time listening to people who are cultured, educated and respectful. I highly respect the academic efforts of people who informally and formally research warbirds, their paint, markings, and history. All I ask is that you respect with equal measure my family's efforts at spending a great proportion of our disposable income maintaining a WWII airplane.
Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:33 pm
How to say this with out sounding like a kiss A$$.
As Jack said, some of us really need to get a life and allow other to do what they want with the property they own and are kind enough to share with us who are not in a position to own pieces of history. Too those, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Now I enjoy seeing a/c painted up in colors they wore in Military service. But I’d hate to think of a world without aircraft painted up like the a/c of Foss, McCampbell, Kepford, Bong, Gentile, Meyer, Gabreski, and even Boyington. Some a/c need to be painted in those colors, they are Heroes to many others and me.
As for the P-51B being talked about, I see both sides of this. But I have always thought it would be very cool to see several P-51s, B-17s… painted in the same Squardeon / wing colors fly together. I’ve seen 6 B-17s fly together and each one look very different. I’ve seen pictures of the Memphis Belle movie when several were painted up all in OD. That would have been great to see, an experience to bring one back if only for a second. I’d love to see several Blue Nose Bastards fly together again. There is something too that I like.
As Jack said, some of us really need to get a life and allow other to do what they want with the property they own and are kind enough to share with us who are not in a position to own pieces of history. Too those, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Now I enjoy seeing a/c painted up in colors they wore in Military service. But I’d hate to think of a world without aircraft painted up like the a/c of Foss, McCampbell, Kepford, Bong, Gentile, Meyer, Gabreski, and even Boyington. Some a/c need to be painted in those colors, they are Heroes to many others and me.
As for the P-51B being talked about, I see both sides of this. But I have always thought it would be very cool to see several P-51s, B-17s… painted in the same Squardeon / wing colors fly together. I’ve seen 6 B-17s fly together and each one look very different. I’ve seen pictures of the Memphis Belle movie when several were painted up all in OD. That would have been great to see, an experience to bring one back if only for a second. I’d love to see several Blue Nose Bastards fly together again. There is something too that I like.
Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:09 pm
ED
Well put. Knowing what it costs to paint an airplane, I'd do the same thing.
Congratulations on achieving your dream of warbird ownership!
I'm pleased that there are still guys like yourself willing to buy, insure and fuel the beasts (especially with today's AVGAS prices!!!) for all of us to enjoy.
And a special thanks for being accessable to those of us whose warbird dreams aren't matched by our checkbooks or piloting ability.
Happy flying....
Well put. Knowing what it costs to paint an airplane, I'd do the same thing.
Congratulations on achieving your dream of warbird ownership!
I'm pleased that there are still guys like yourself willing to buy, insure and fuel the beasts (especially with today's AVGAS prices!!!) for all of us to enjoy.
And a special thanks for being accessable to those of us whose warbird dreams aren't matched by our checkbooks or piloting ability.
Happy flying....
Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:50 pm
Matt, I can agree with you completely about the flat paint and all of the bad things that come with it. The best thing you can do to approach authenticity is a semigloss. It knocks off the shine but gives you a sealed cleanable surface.
Finished product looks pretty authentic and should satisfy all the complainers that might see it airshows. At least it won't look like a showcar.
Finished product looks pretty authentic and should satisfy all the complainers that might see it airshows. At least it won't look like a showcar.
Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:53 am
I can say from my own experience that there is something about painting a warbird in the flat military scheme. Our AC-47 has been painted this way and it really looks the part, it is a pain to wash and keep clean though but with a big warbird thats part of the fun in getting together just to wash it and have a cold one when your done.
Spookyboss
Spookyboss
Re: Thoughts on Paint Scheme Discussions
Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:37 am
EDowning wrote:ultimately part of what comes with writing the checks is the choices that are made belong to the owner.
Preach on!! Can I get an 'AMEN'?!
Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:29 am
What can I say...
Our Harvard is disguised as a Typhoon...
Our T-34 is in a fictionnal RCN blue scheme with a white arrow on the tail.
The Focke-Wulf is disguised as a Fw 190A-3...
Our friend's Nanchang is all-red.
Our friend's Fw 149D looks weird!
Our friend's Pilatus P-3 is in a militarish civvie scheme.
The rule for me is : it has to look good!
Our Harvard is disguised as a Typhoon...
Our T-34 is in a fictionnal RCN blue scheme with a white arrow on the tail.
The Focke-Wulf is disguised as a Fw 190A-3...
Our friend's Nanchang is all-red.
Our friend's Fw 149D looks weird!
Our friend's Pilatus P-3 is in a militarish civvie scheme.
The rule for me is : it has to look good!