How slow can a P-51 fly

[Baldeagle]

in level flight?




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[jet1]

...that a P-51 gets pretty "sporty" at 100 mph or less, but it really depends on many factors

[gary1954]

Yer supposed to fly a P-51 slow????

[CanberraA84-232]

the lowest airspeed for a P-51 in level flight i can recall was a shade under 90 mph with full flap

[Bill Greenwood]

In an article Elmer Ward gives 90 mph as the stall speed, I assume he means clean, Vs. My guess is about 80 mph with gear and full flaps, Vso for a civilian one like Crazy Horse.

The pilot manual gives 94 and 87, but that is for a military plane with wing tank mounts and at 8000 lbs.

The speeds given for the clip wing racer Stileto is 110 Vs,and 98 Vso. I am not sure about Strega.

The wing flaps in a 51 D are large and more effective than anything I can think of. There are 5 notches of 10* each, with the total being 47*. So if you are slightly fast on final that last notch can really help to slow you down. This big plus can also be a negative as you don't want to get low and slow on short final with that much drag. Another plus is with full flaps the nose position is low enough that you have a bit of visibility to the runway.

[Green Goggles]

From what I've been told, they get pretty sluggish at anything under about 150 or 160 mph. They don't really like to go slow.

[Jack Cook]

I've always been told that you can stall it at any speed if you work hard enough

[AvroAvian]

I remember Gordon Plaskett's three rules of flying Mustangs -

1. Don't fly slow

2. Don't fly slow

and

3. Don't fly slow


Seriously, P51's do have a nasty reputation at slow airspeeds, including the infamous 'doctor's turn' onto final (that's the old "darn, I've overshot final, I'll just tighten the turn a little"). IIRC the first time I went to LA in '89, the front page news story was of a fellow who did just that and planted his aeroplane into a house outside of Santa Monica. I can't remember who it was or the P51 involved. Maybe someone here will be able to provide the details.

[Baldeagle]

I ask because we were talking in the Vintage section about trying a formation flight with a Fokker Triplane and a P-51. I think the Triplane will do 110 mph in level flight, so maybe it would be possible at altitude in a shallow turn with the P-51 on the outside?




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[snj-5]

I remember Gordon Plaskett's three rules of flying Mustangs -

1. Don't fly slow

2. Don't fly slow

and

3. Don't fly slow

I've seen this expanded upon with the following:

If you ignore rules 1 through 3;

4. Don't pull too hard

If you ignore rule #4

5. Don't fly too low

Bela P. Havasreti

[Bill Greenwood]

You can certainly fly a Mustang at 105 mph with gear down and full flaps, and it handles ok. No, it is not a Zero nor a Spit MK V, but what else is?

From what Howard tells me about flying the Triplane, I think that may be more dangerous than any Mustang.

Yes, in theory, an airplane can be stalled at any speed if you load it up enough with g. But when you ask the stall speed of a plane, it is assumed to be power off, and either clean Vs, or gear and flaps down, Vso which is usually, not always, about 10 % lower.

The best Mustang landing I ever made was flying Crazy Horse with Doug in the back seat. I was not used to doing wheel landings, did not do them as my normal landing in any of the planes I regularly flew, Cub, SNJ, Spit, or Rose biplane. So Doug said to try one almost 3 point. We crossed the threshold at Bartow, about 5000 feet, at 95 with a touch of power, and were at 90 with power off just as I started to flare. We made a very good tail low almost stall landing and could have stopped easily about half way down if we wanted. Doug liked that one, but he said never any slower, so we used 95to100 as the approach speed at the runway end to do wheel landings.
At 95 the 51 feels like it has lost half the aileron authority and some of the rudder. There is enough elevator control to flare or to use forward stick after touchdown. To me, it just feels like a bigger airplane. The big tires seem to soak up little mistakes. Luckily, I never had to fight the plane or try to make a big recovery. My worst landing was trying to make my first wheel landing with Lee. I got to the touchdown point, and did not really flare to tail low, nor did I use forward stick enough. So I sat there in between as we did about 3 skips down the runway. Lee was very cool and unflustered, but I suggested that he change the plane name from Crazy Horse to Crazy Hops.

The idea that a Mustang cannot be flow safely below 120 is an exaggeration. If you have flaps down,power back, wings level, and if you do not get low and slow, and MOST OF ALL, DO NOT PULL Gs, then it is not just suddenly going to turn into a Mu2. If you are looking for the signs of a stall, like in practice, you can see them, mainly the controls getting soft and loosing the feel of response, especially the ailerons. This is perhaps 5 mph before the stall. If you lower the nose and/or add some power, (some, not 61 inches!) it continues to fly. There is no stall warning horn or light like civilian planes. Now if the pilot were to be preoccupied like in a mock dogfight or a hard pull on a low pass or landing break, you well could get a stall before you were aware. I do imagine the a 51 in wartime at max full load weight was a caution.

When I was first getting some 51 time, Jay Cullum, an experienced owner, told me that it was not difficult, just remember 120 mph and 2 gs. Thus, you don't want to pull up to 2 gs when turning base to final and not less than 120 mph there. As for acro, Art Vance flew my Spitfire once and we talked about the differences. He said for acro the 51 was basically not a good plane below 200 mph. But remember what it was designed for, long range ,high speed escort which it was without equal. If you want to fly around at 60 mph, get a Stearman or a Cub, or better yet get a Spit Mk V, and I'll even help you fly it, no charge. Me and about a zillion other guys.

I do see quite a few Mustang landings that seem to me to be too fast as if the pilot was still in slow cruise when he encountered the runway, and he depended on forward stick and big brakes to slow him down. I remember asking Lee about this and he said a Mustang landed at the proper speed does not need P63 type brakes.

[mlenoch]

Bill, that's right, the Mustang does not need P-63 brakes to land.
I teach newbies that Mustang brakes are not for landing, they are for taxiing. Use proper landing techniques and the Mustang will land nice and slow and easy.
(When they were plentiful, Mustang owners were getting P-63 brakes because they lasted longer, having a larger surface area. It was an economic conversion rather than operational.)
VL

[b29flteng]

My Dad always told me to land, taxi, or drive a car as if you don't have brakes. What this does is teach you to anticipate, thus not needing to use your brakes much. (My Dad crew chiefed Spitfire MkVs, which had poor brakes)

[muddyboots]

Bill, that's right, the Mustang does not need P-63 brakes to land.
I teach newbies that Mustang brakes are not for landing, they are for taxiing. Use proper landing techniques and the Mustang will land nice and slow and easy.
(When they were plentiful, Mustang owners were getting P-63 brakes because they lasted longer, having a larger surface area. It was an economic conversion rather than operational.)
VL

It is these inside comments that make WIX what it is.

[Dudley Henriques]

in level flight?
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I believe I understand correctly you are asking about a proposed formation flight in a Mustang with a Triplane at 110?

Your 51 pilot should be comfortable with the scenario if current and a fair stick in the 51. I'd fly the mission with the 51 as light on fuel as necessary for the flight.

At 110 you are in an area for the 51 that's fairly deep into the left side of the envelope but it's doable. I'd brief the flight for extremely shallow turns and as well and if possible. turns to the left will make it a lot easier on your 51 pilot's arm
You're pretty deep into slow flight at 110 in the Mustang. You can go a bit deeper but it takes a steady hand. As the airspeed comes down, you pick up some hefty torque forces in the Mustang that will require right rudder and even some right aileron. I believe your pilot will find that he'll need some pitch AND rudder trim to make the job easier. Slow flight turns should be very shallow and as I said, a lot easier to the left than to the right side for a Mustang at slow airspeed maintaining altitude.
I'd do the formation with a clean wing or at best no more than 10 degrees of flap. The more flap you use, the more control input and trim you'll be needing as well as more power to compensate for the increased drag. This will require even more right rudder and it's possible to run out of rudder.
Basically as I said no huge issues here but he'll have to be careful.
Dudley Henriques