P-51s with no stabilizer

[barnbstormer]

I read that some P-51 B and C models were prone to losing their stabilizers "during maneuvering." Does anyone know af any photos of P-51s with no stabilizers, in flight, or making it back home? I don't have a lot of Mustang books.

[b29driver]

Airplanes missing an entire horizontal stabilizer don't make it back home.

[b29flteng]

I remember an article that told of the B/C models loosing their wings in a steep dive due to air getting under the gear doors. I think the latching system was changed. Can any Mustang gurus shed any light on this?

[K5DH]

I remember an article that told of the B/C models loosing their wings in a steep dive due to air getting under the gear doors. I think the latching system was changed. Can any Mustang gurus shed any light on this?

Funny you should mention this. The latest issue of Warbirds International Mustangs had an article on this very subject. It was a problem with very early P-51D models. The design had been changed from the positive mechanical gear uplock system and was dependant solely upon hydraulic pressure. If the pressure bled down any, the mains would start bouncing up and down inside the gear wells, slapping into the inner doors on the downward bounce, slowly knocking the doors open until the slipstream got inside and pulled them all the way open. This opened up the entire gear bay to the slipstream. The mains would be yanked down by the slipstream, be pulled backwards until the breaking point, and the spar would be twisted off. This was happening during level flight. Two test pilots in England were killed just days apart, and the problem was discovered when ground investigators attempted to duplicate the conditions leading up the crashes, but on the ground. The uplock system was modified to the P-51B/C style, and the problem was cured. Interesting reading!

[barnbstormer]

Airplanes missing an entire horizontal stabilizer don't make it back home.

Two things.
1.I'm sure you are right... and that would seem obvious.
But I posted that after I was dead tired from spending the day scanning a whole bunch of contact prints, I made from original unpublished , private negatives loaned to me, that I had misplaced over 30 years ago. A family friend asked 30 years ago, if I could make him some prints from a stack of original WWII negatives of photos he had taken during and after the daylight bombing raids, as a bomber crewman. on his hidden little box camera.
2.And we have ALL seen the most impossible shots of some of the bombers that made it back home, missing parts that would seem to make them impossible to fly. He also had numerous shots where he gave the camera to someone nearby to take photos of him. So. I know they did not come from someone else..He spent the rest of his life, as what can only be described as a "nervous wreck" with a serious stutter and other symptoms after relating many tales of watching all the bombers around him, constantly getting blown out of the sky by FLAK or fighters, all around him, always thinking it could be him in the next seconds. The terrors of those missions stayed as part of him, until the day he died. I shall TRULY think of him, next weekend on Memorial Day.
After the long day of scanning the old contact prints,
this unusually calm shot , taken of two of the nearby escorts, from his camera, jarred me, as the closest fighter had a tail that looked odd.
Wish I still had his original negs, but he wanted them right back after getting the prints. I am SURE that his relatives threw them out when he passed on, years ago..Wish I had them to enlarge and see the tail better.

[warbird1]

That's a very interesting photo, but IMO I don't think it shows a Mustang flying around without a horizontal stabilizer and elevator for several reasons:

1) To do so would defy the laws of physics and aerodynamics and is just not possible

2) The white part appears to be either a reflection off of the stabilizer or perhaps a film and/or light anomaly of some sort

3) The "dark" portion between the vertical stab/rudder and the empennage is much too thick. If I'm not mistaken the attach point that connects the two is much, much smaller. At least it is that way on a D model, but I'll bet the B/C's are pretty similar.

4) It would make no sense for a severely disabled and crippled Mustang to be flying that close to the bomber it was protecting. It would have probably already broken off with his element and be flying at a farther distance from the plane it was supposed to protect. This would be especially true if it were still over enemy territory.

Hopefully one of our Mustang mechanics can comment on this picture and give their analysis.

[Jack Cook]

That's just the angle that gives it that look. you can see the black ID stripe on the horizontal.
While flying T-28s at Whiting Field my step-dad was holding short for a T-28C doing a touch and go
has it went by they noticed the left stab was gone. It was torn off when the the pilot over G'd it.
They didn't even realize what happened and just kept going until someone saw them and they decide
to make it a full stop.

[barnbstormer]

I'm sure you are right Jack. Few have studied aero photos more than you..
But to add just a "bit" to the photo puzzle/angle etc. One of first things I enlarged (for comparison)was the second P-51 way off in the back left distance. you can hardly see much-but one thing you CAN clearly see is the large front-of-fin to fuselage fillet on that tail. If there is a fin/fus fillet on the near one, I don't see it. Absence of the fillet on the near one is odd I thought

[warbird1]

One of first things I enlarged (for comparison)was the second P-51 way off in the back left distance. you can hardly see much-but one thing you CAN clearly see is the large front-of-fin to fuselage fillet on that tail. If there is a fin/fus fillet on the near one, I don't see it. Absence of the fillet on the near one is odd I thought

The B/C models had a mod where the fillet was added after it was discovered that the plane had better stability with it. In combat, it was not uncommon to have both types in the same squadron.

[The Inspector]

One of the functions of the horizontal stabilizer is to keep the tail of the aircraft down, not up (parts of it also have some effect in 'trees get smaller, trees get bigger' thing too. The next time you're @ the old cattlecar collection point waitin' to climb on that Blue and Orange city bus so you can rocket off to another burg, look @ the horizontals on very large aircraft like a 747. The stab is almost flat on top and heavily cambered on the bottom. all together now 'to keep the tail down'.
What you are seeing in that photo is a trick of placement and lighting combined with film stock that was pretty slow due to less silver in the negative paper due to silver being needed for more important things during the war than pictures. The dark spot is the eyeball stripe marking as Jack mentions, used in the ETO to identify friend from foe at a quick glance. I read somewhere that one of the reasons that D-Day stripes were what they were had to do with that style of stripe already being in wide usage on the Hawker TEMPEST and TYPHOON because at a quick glance in plan form they do look a lot like an FW-190 to another pilot or especially to some poor guy in the mud with his head down.
If the horizontal did come off an airplane completely the wing would flip trailing edge up and over as physics attempted to fill the low pressure area on top of the wing and the aircraft would back through the air inverted until it destructed, the same thing happens in out of control Mach tuck where the nose drops until the aircraft flips over backwards and inverted for its remaining seconds of existance.

[Dan Johnson II]

The Mustang in the background is a D model with the fillet. Note the radio mast just in front of it. Black ID band clearly showing on the horizontal stabilizer on the B/C model in front. 339th FG on the escort run apparently

[51fixer]

The horizontal on the P-51 series went through design changes as the A/C went along in service.
Many issues became apparent as the Merlin was installed.
There were Tech Orders issued to reinforce several areas of the horizontal and vertical fins in the field and NAA built stronger items then in the factory.
Some of the cause was traced to the rudder being too light in feel to the pilot and would over control creating some wild gyrations that would fold the horizontal.
NAA changed the Rudder Trim Tab system to de-boost or provide force against pilot inputs. Also the fillet was added in front of the vertical.
Fillets were added to some of the B/Cs in the field. P-51D-5 were field modified but -10 and on had them from the factory IIRC.
Rich

[barnbstormer]

What you are seeing in that photo is a trick of placement and lighting combined with film stock that was pretty slow due to less silver in the negative paper due to silver being needed for more important things during the war than pictures.

I hope you all enjoyed this photo that caught my eye and made ME do a double take.
Yes I know it could not fly without a stab or elevators, and if they DID come off, it would be highly unlikely to be such a "Clean" parting, and the plane would not be flying level, or at all. I was playing "Devil's Advocate" on some of the "observations."
Thought you might have fun sorting it out.
But I think the most Obvious (to me) clue that the somewhat "invisible" stabilizer WAS there, aside from the dark stripe,was the rear part of what looked like an empty slot. Aside from the front part of the "empty slot" the rear part goes so cleanly through the rudder. No way a departing stab & elevators could have sliced such a perfect slot in the lower half of the rudder, leaving the bottom part, underneath, so cleanly sheared and intact...

[bipe215]

Airplanes missing an entire horizontal stabilizer don't make it back home.

Some do. More than one B-17 has. Google "B-17 All American". One of the most famous B-17 photos.
I realize that the P-51 has a one piece stab, which obviously is impossible to fly without. However, aircraft with left and right stabs can fly with one entire stab gone.

Steve G

[Randy Haskin]

I realize that the P-51 has a one piece stab, which obviously is impossible to fly without. However, aircraft with left and right stabs can fly with one entire stab gone.

Uh, what?