Early P40 Identity - Research assistance needed

[shelldrake]

Hi All

I have recently discovered that a collector here in Oz has the identity to what appears to be a very early P40. The data plates (Curtiss and USAAC) read as follows:

Curtiss Plate:
Customer = C-39-7
Model = P40
Serial = 39-196
Const = 13073
Class = PURSUIT

USAAC Plate:

Type = P40G
Serial = 42-14265
Date = 7-12-40

Some of these details I may have mixed up from the Curtiss plate because it has two columns.
I've done some basic research on 39-196 and I understand that it was converted to a later G model. I was hoping to be able to confirm that these plates match the one aircraft identity and what was the eventual fate of this particular Hawk. Could someone also identify the customer code as well?

All help appreciated.

SD

[RMAllnutt]

From what I can see, there were only 44 P-40G's (which were P-40's with Tomahawk II wings.... four .303 machine guns, instead of the pair of .50's). According to the website http://www.p40warhawk.com/Variants/P-40G.htm P-40 39-196 was one of those so converted. You have a unique survivor here... plus, the fact that it's probably got a documented serial correlation could be very important in corrolating the re-numbering conversion. Any chance we could see the plates?

Chances are that these came from a Russian wreck by the way, as most went there according to the website.

Cheers,
Richard

[Dan K]

Richard, you may be very right about her going to Russia. I honestly don't know.

If so, she would've been one worn-out bird, as her history includes a number of accidents at various stateside training bases.

As 39-196 she had a mishap at Mitchell Field on April 8, 1941

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... pr1941.htm


As 42-14265, she suffered multiple mishaps at Myrtle Beach and Apalachicola:

Feb. 28, 1942

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... eb1942.htm

March 22, 1942

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... ar1942.htm

Dec. 27, 1943

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... c1943S.htm

[hang the expense]

I recall reading where all the former Air corps birds went back through the Curtiss plant in buffalo ny for overhaul before going overseas.I also have a RAF IIB dataplate from a Russian crash.Pretty rare but not as rare as the P-40 G plate.

[Buz]

Interesting one, this, firstly there are only two known and proven match ups for P-40 to P-40G serial numbers, neither of which is the one mentioned here (these being 39-182/42-14269 and 40-338/42-14261 even though records show that there were at least 8 aircraft with 42-1426X type serials), so on that basis I cannot confirm or deny the correct match for the serials, sorry.

The remainder is a little easier, according to Curtiss Records this bird.

No. - 41
CUST - USA
Type - P-40
Mfg No. - 13073 (Const No. Correct on the P-40 plate)
Cust No. AC39-196 (USAAC Serial Correct on P-40 Plate)
Price. - 22929.30
Del Date 17/7/40,
Inv Date 12/7/40,
Accep. Date. - 12/7/40, - (Plate date is correct on the G Plate – Bare in mind these birds are considered to be a re-wing only by Curtiss and do not appear in their records as new/rebuild unlike some French SBC aircraft -So new serial correct date correct (if the new serial can be trusted – Sorry without further info on the source of the plate then it’s very hard to give it 100% yes to the serial match))
Dest. - Russia , Cont. - 30/10/41 S.O. 7198

Accepted by USAAC 12/7/40, Langley Field 17/7/40, Wrecked Langley 31/10/40 - Ground Looped (Pilot Lt T.L.Traux) 33PS/8PG, Mitchell Field 23/11/40, Wrecked Mitchell - Not known what Happened (Pilot Lt H.A.French) 33PS/8PG, Converted to P-40G 14/8/41 -To Defence Aid 31/10/41.

Seeing there is nothing further on the aircraft card then it would be assumed that the aircraft went to Russia as per both USAAC and Curtiss records (however assumption can also be wrong). Other aircraft that went to Defence Aid for Russia but were re-claimed by the USAAC all have this stated on the IRC.

If the plates came from Russia then it is likely they came from a wreck in the North areas of Russia (Leningrad Front or Murmansk Front) and its believed that 154IAP, 159IAP and 196IAP (in the Leningrad area), with 147IAP, 964IAP and 20GvIAP (in the Murmansk region), as well as 126IAP near Moscow all used a mixed bag of Tomahawk and P-40C/P-40G aircraft. This holds true for most combat losses, however this could be a training loss so therefore may actually be somewhere else in Russia.

Interestingly the USAAF state they had 42-14265 in the US and flying with 20PG etc. Once again because the serial match ups haven’t been confirmed then I cannot state for fact that 39-196 and 42-14265 are one in the same bird, and would depend on the source of the plates.

Finally the C-39-7 is not the Customer it is actually the aircraft model so therefore may be a transcription error on the Plate or from fat fingers

Buz

Last edited by Buz on Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Dan K]

Accepted by USAAC 12/7/40, Langley Field 17/7/40, Wrecked Langley 31/10/40 - Ground Looped (Pilot Lt T.L.Traux) 33PS/8PG, Mitchell Field 23/11/40, Wrecked Mitchell - Not known what Happened (Pilot Lt H.A.French) 33PS/8PG, Converted to P-40G 14/8/41 -To Defence Aid 31/10/41.

Coincidentally, I believe the "Lt T.L. Traux" listed is likely Lt. Thomas L. Truax, namesake of Truax Field (Dane County Regional Airport) in Madison, Wisconsin. Truax's remains are also buried in Madison.

Lt. Truax was one of those lost in the disastrous series of P-40 training flights conducted on the west coast of October and November, 1941. Here are a few links for those unfamiliar with the events:

http://pacaeropress.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3780727

http://picasaweb.google.com/TamRanger/BaldHillP40CS#

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /truax.htm

[Mark_Pilkington]

.
There was an ex-Russian "P40E" (wreck?) imported into Australia a number of years ago by a well known Australian restorer which "I understand" is the basis of a "P40F" for a well known English collector, it may be possible the "data plate" being discussed is some how related to that situation?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

[shelldrake]

Holy Cow!

Thanks for this information. I spoke to the owner last night and they confirm both plates came together (sourced from same location) along with a few other bits and pieces (nothing major).

I shall ask about the connection to the E model from Russia and update accordingly.

How many P-40's are running with their 'original' Russian WW2 markings?

Note: Nothing to do with Russian P-40E


Shelldrake

[Digger]

Well I'll be buggered.

P-40 39-196 or 42-14265 belongs to Reevers, same group I sold all my stuff to and who are rebuilding A29-186 P-40K at Wangaratta.
I purchased this from a private collector in the US and I am sure (will need to check the books) that both plates came with a lower station 5, pedals, front canopy and half an instrument panel (plus alot of other smaller bits and pieces). Interestingly, the panel still has the card holder with the faded remains of writing on the card.

Whats so important about 39-196 anyway?

Only tonight I asked a fellow researcher to track down some pics of 39 series P-40's



Peter

[mike furline]

[hang the expense]

.
There was an ex-Russian "P40E" (wreck?) imported into Australia a number of years ago by a well known Australian restorer which "I understand" is the basis of a "P40F" for a well known English collector, it may be possible the "data plate" being discussed is some how related to that situation?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark, If you want the rest of the info on that russian E model just PM.Anyone want to guess how you can spot a P-40G without the serial number?

[Digger]

So the G was a re-wing B/C ? and then sent to Russia it seems or is suggested.

So how did it get into a private collection in Florida USofA?

Nice picture too, thanks


Peter

[TAdan]

Anyone want to guess how you can spot a P-40G without the serial number?

I'd love to know...

[hang the expense]

Anyone want to guess how you can spot a P-40G without the serial number?

I'd love to know...

The fuel and oil fill access doors are behind the rear vision panel up high.The access panels forward of the windscreen are also noticably smaller than the B/C versions as well.Its hard to spot in most pics but if you know what to look for its alot easier.The canopy kickout panel is also different but not that you would notice.I hope that helps.There's 4 pictures on hawksnest with a early P-40 with no engine and a left turn 38 prop on it.It was at Keesler as late as 1947 and it was in the woods! crazy stuff.If somebody knows the guy tell him its a G model.

[Buz]

So the G was a re-wing B/C ? and then sent to Russia it seems or is suggested.

So how did it get into a private collection in Florida USofA?

Nice picture too, thanks


Peter

Peter

Not quite the P-40G-CU was a P-40-CU rewinged to become a 4 Gun win set instead of two guns. As for the access panels, I seem to be missing that bit, can you help out with where the difference is??. One of the biggest differences between the two is the Cam scheme.....

So how do you tell a P-40 from a P-40G??