US restorations workshops

[italian harvard]

I guess it's an all american thing, there arent many here on the other side of the pond.
To have such facility and a talented crew taking back warbirds to the sky would be a dream, but I wonder if u can tell me some details about it. Are they really worth it?

Alex

[HarvardIV]

Hi Alex:

I don't know, but I could guess it would be like have an auto mechanic shop. I'm sure like anything, doing it full time would become like any other job.

[bdk]

To have such facility and a talented crew taking back warbirds to the sky would be a dream, but I wonder if u can tell me some details about it. Are they really worth it?

Are the warbirds worth restoring, is owning a restoration business profitable, or is working for one of these facilities a worthwhile profession? I'm not sure which question you are asking!

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

BDK,

While owning a Warbird is very prestigeous endeavor for the owner, mainrtaing these birds is a VERY expensive proposition. For the most part the answer would betwo fols. Let's say if the onwer of a project wanted a truly pristine restoration and was willing to spend what it took to exactly that, then a competant restoration shop would be "capable" of turning a profit on the restoration.

BUT....and this where the money comes into play severely. When I was with Planes of Fame, (when they were located in Minnesota "Planes of Fame East") they had a beutiful collection of all flyable aircraft, both fighters and bomber aircraft from a Stearman to a B-17. However, at the time, we were in the middle of a long overdue maintanance visit on one of the four mustangs that were present there at the time. To give you and idea of cost for parts for these birds, the lower scoop radiator repair/replacement coast alone was $25K . And that was just for the radiator. Nothing else, an engine overhaul was at the time running near $100K just for the Merlins, and somewhere close to that for the Radials that powered the fighters such as the P-47, Hellcat, Wildcat, TBM, Corsair, and Bearcat to name a few. And even at that with their respective engines being exclusive of the Wildcat, all R-2800 variants. Not to mention the Skyraider with it's R-3350, and all four of the B-17 engines, and then you had to consider the engines for the P-63 as well as the P-38 and Spitfire.

I guess to make a long story short. There are many pro's and cons to be weighed out when considering the cost of maintaining these planes and to whom you trust them with their care.

Now, the flip side of the equation is that owners, and this is solely my point of view having known many, tend to be spendthrift when it comes to paying for both labor and parts. They, for what I have seen at least, want to fly their aircraft and not spend too much to do it. With the exception of fuel and insurance needs, hangar space, etc....the buisness end is run closely and tightly.

However, look around at the many flying museums we have today that perform their own work, if they can of course, but that is done via mostly volunteers, even the CAF is a mostly volunteer force of folks who keep the planes airworthy.

I hope in a round about way this helps in answer to your question,

Paul

[HELLDIVERS]

HI BEING IN THE WARBIRD INDUSTRY HAS ITS UPS AND DOWNS.IF YOU THINK YOUR GOING TO GET RICH ,THINK TWICE.FOLKS TAKE THEIR CAR INTO THE LOCAL DEALERSHIP AND ITS NOT UNUSUAL TO PAY $65.00 AND UP TO HAVE THE FAMILY SEDAN WORKED ON.IN THE WARBIRD WORLD THERE ARE SO MANY GUYS THAT WANT TO GET INTO THE GAME THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO WORK FOR NOTHING TO GET INTO THE BUSINESS. THE PROBLEM IS EXPERIENCE,IF THE FAMILY CAR QUITS YOU PULL OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AND WAIT FOR THE TOW TRUCK TO WISK YOU OFF TO HAVE IT REPAIRED,IF YOUR A/C QUITS IT BECOMES A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME ANY TYPE OF OFF FIELD LANDING CAN NOT ONLY RUIN YOUR DAY BUT ALSO TAKE YOUR LIFE.I FIND THAT ALOT OF OPERATERS ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR THE GUY THAT WILL DO IT FOR AS CHEAP AS POSSIBLE.THE BOTTOM LINE IS QUALITY AND SAFETY,YOU MUST PUT ALOT OF TRUST AND FAITH IN THE GUY THAT PERFORMS THE JOB,ONE MISSED COTTER KEY OR SOMETHING NOT SAFETY WIRED CAN BE FATAL!I FOUND OUT YEARS AGO THAT YOU CAN WORK ON AIR PLANES ALL DAY FOR FREE,BUT WITH OVERHEAD COSTS,RENT, LIGHTS,HEAT,ECT ALL HAVE TO BE PAID AND A BAG OF FOOD COMES IN HANDY ALSO.I FIND THAT I WORK MANY MORE HOURS A DAY TO MAKE LESS MONEY THAN WORKING FOR SOMEONE ELSE,BUT IT IS TRUELY A LABOR OF LOVE.THANKS MIKE

[Dan K]

Paul,

My goodness! Close to $100,000 for an R-2800 rebuild 10 years ago? Seems a little pricey when there are good shops today that'll "git' er done" for a third of that cost (For example...a quick price check from J&R Engine in Miami:).

http://jrengines.com/Price.htm

Or was Mr. Pond having all the accessories gold plated?

[Originalboxcar]

Mike,

Thanks for the insight for us dreamers! Owning, maintaining, and restoring warbirds appear to be expensive and at this point I'd be happy with a 1:1 replica in my front yard, but those are pricey as well

regards,

t~

[Dan K]

Boxcar,

Why keep dreaming? If you want a 1:1 replica, start on one today!

[italian harvard]

thanks for your posts guys
I approched aeroplanes as a groundie, and I learned a lot. Like in any other field, if u have a wider knowledge of what u r doing/using, u'll be able to obtain more and know how to manage emergency situations. That's why I think that a specialized workshop rebuilding your plane is great, but maybe doesnt give u the right "education". It's probably even a matter of attitude, but I like getting my hands dirty (with someone's supervising ) working on our plane

Alex

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

Paul,

My goodness! Close to $100,000 for an R-2800 rebuild 10 years ago? Seems a little pricey when there are good shops today that'll "git' er done" for a third of that cost (For example...a quick price check from J&R Engine in Miami:).

http://jrengines.com/Price.htm

Or was Mr. Pond having all the accessories gold plated?

Dan,

I agree, but at the time I was involed there these were the price quotes given to me but the director of mainenance, At the time even I thought they were abit out of line, even for a Radial engine such as a 2800, but the R-2600's were somewhat more specialized as there weren't that many around preserved in cans for later use as P&W engines were most popoular and much more plentiful at wars end. Along with the civilian market at the time. When the jets came on, most Radials went out of style and use. Today, I fully admit that the costo f a rebuild on a 2800 may not be quyite as high as I remember, but there have been many old propliners that once used the venerable 2800 where as the R-2600 and R-2000 engines are not that prevelent. To be honest, the T-6 project I was involved in (still am to a certain extent), the R-1820 carried a hefty prcie tag of close to $25,000 for a yellow tagged serviceable engine and that was ten years ago. And that is a rather non complex engine where as the R-2800 and larger engines still carry, I belive, Type certiciates on the engine itself where they must conform to original specs. And the 2600, 2800, and 3350 engine all have integral superchargers as well as nose gear box reduction units for the prop comtrol. Making those particular engines much more expensive due to their complexity. And if you want to talk higher, I would imagine to cost of overahuling a complete R-4360 is astronomical. If emeory serves me, the Berlin Airlift'c C-97 had one engine that needed to be replaced on the delivery flight and the cost was well into, if I recall correctly the six figure range easily.

Thanks for reading,

Paul

[Cvairwerks]

Something that Mike did not mention is just the start-up cost of getting a shop properly equipted and stocked with a majority of the tooling and supplies that you will need. I'm in that process for my shop right now. By the time I get it back open and am able to take on client work, I will have well in excess of $100K tied up in tools and materials and that doesn't include a building to operate from.

I'm lucky in that I've been a part of a shop before and I have good supplier connections through my current employer. I would guesstimate that someone starting from scratch and not having the time or the knowledge to shop for used tooling and equipment, is going to be pushing in excess of a half-million to do it right. You might scoff at that number, but consider that you have to buy equuipment big enough to handle almost all of your anticipated work or you will spend yourself into the ground farming out the work that your tools can't do.

Also, you are going to have to have hardware stock onhand to get anything done within a reasonable amount of time. I think that I'll have something like $10K in just nuts, bolts, screws, rivets, washers and all the other little nit-noid common hardware and chemical items that you need around the shop. If you think that you will just order it as you need it, it'll kill your usable shop time having to chase it down. I generally buy my hardware in bulk lots and have spread the purchase out...ie I spent one batch of hardware money buying a good selection and quantity of the washers that I think that I need to keep onhand. Next batch of bucks is nuts, and so on until the bins are populated.

More food for thought...