WWII aircraft in lakes
Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:54 am
Does anyone have a list of a/c that were reported to have gone down in water? This could be a good way to harvest and double the know population of combat warbirds.
Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:13 am
I assume you are talking about freshwater lakes, the deeper the better ?
The P-47D in Traunsee was raised from aprox 100 m (= approx 330 feet or 55 fathoms) where the water is constantly at approx 4° C (39.2° F) and has little to no vegetation....
optimal conditions for an underwater wreck
I know of a few crashes in Lake Constance (Bodensee) but this lake is rather shallow and the sediment on the floor is very thick (courtesy of River Rhine) - therefore any sunken aircraft is deep in the muck and very difficult to recover, if possible at all.
This IMHO reduces the chance of similar finds drastically.
Martin
The P-47D in Traunsee was raised from aprox 100 m (= approx 330 feet or 55 fathoms) where the water is constantly at approx 4° C (39.2° F) and has little to no vegetation....
optimal conditions for an underwater wreck
I know of a few crashes in Lake Constance (Bodensee) but this lake is rather shallow and the sediment on the floor is very thick (courtesy of River Rhine) - therefore any sunken aircraft is deep in the muck and very difficult to recover, if possible at all.
This IMHO reduces the chance of similar finds drastically.
Martin
Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:38 am
HI LAKE WASHINGTON IN THE SEATTLE AREA IS A TREASURE TROVE OF SUNKEN A/C.SEVERAL A/C HAVE BEEN RECOVERED BUT MANY MORE ARE STILL THERE.LOTS IN LAKE MICHIGAN,LAKE ERIE,ECT.BUT THEN THERE IS THE NHC ISSUE 
.HAPPY HUNTING THANKS MIKE
.HAPPY HUNTING THANKS MIKE
Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:45 am
Hi all--
There used to be a Bolingbroke not far off shore in Lake Erie; it's still in the lake, but the severe winter of 1977 saw ice drag the airframe into much deeper water...and probably squash it pretty badly to boot.
Other interesting items have been rumoured in Lake Ontario--a Blackburn Shark off Trenton, for instance (almost certainly actually some other type, as the Shark it supposedly is was recovered right after ditching), or a couple ex-RCNVR instructional airframes possibly deep-sixed in Toronto's outer harbour. (Wish I could say HMCS Star's long-ago Seafire XV gate guard SR464 were in Hamilton harbour, or better yet tucked in a warehouse on the waterfront...alas, it ain't so...)
S.
There used to be a Bolingbroke not far off shore in Lake Erie; it's still in the lake, but the severe winter of 1977 saw ice drag the airframe into much deeper water...and probably squash it pretty badly to boot.
Other interesting items have been rumoured in Lake Ontario--a Blackburn Shark off Trenton, for instance (almost certainly actually some other type, as the Shark it supposedly is was recovered right after ditching), or a couple ex-RCNVR instructional airframes possibly deep-sixed in Toronto's outer harbour. (Wish I could say HMCS Star's long-ago Seafire XV gate guard SR464 were in Hamilton harbour, or better yet tucked in a warehouse on the waterfront...alas, it ain't so...)
S.
Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:31 pm
the great lakes has been a popular past thread on wix, i'm sure that will enlighten you a bit with a little digging. as to the bolingbroke, probably right on it's being ground to nothing as lake erie is the shallowest of all the great lakes, & new invasive species from foreign freighter ballast tanks are only making matter worse. best, tom
Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:27 am
Hi All,
I don't know if this exactly on topic, but a couple of friends and I actually thought about going into the salvage buisness for these aircraft. I surbsquently wrote the Commander of Great Lakes Naval and what I was informed of basically in a nutshell is this....you dive on it, find it, secure and and all perntinanet info, AND you must triangulate it's position in the lake. If it was a Naval aicraft, you then submit your data to the Navy and then they will determine whether or not it can be raised and brought up. BUT...all the data you aquire on any specific aircraft you MUST submit to the Navy, then at that time it goes up for "alledged" sealed bid. Meaning that if one of their good old boys wants it, they get it no matter how much you bid during the process. Nasty buisness, and there is a story that once was written of some many years ago about and enthusiast who spent his own dime to raise a TBM to restore. The Navy caught wind of the project, appeared at his residence and laced the plane on a flatbed and then drove away...without so much as a Thank You for the for the effort or go scr#w yourself. The Navy just drove away with the plane.
Nice people in government aren't they ? And please bear in mind, the gentleman who raised this plane was still on the hook for the salvage job ? The USN never once offered to compensate him on thin dime.
Thanks for reading,
Paul
I don't know if this exactly on topic, but a couple of friends and I actually thought about going into the salvage buisness for these aircraft. I surbsquently wrote the Commander of Great Lakes Naval and what I was informed of basically in a nutshell is this....you dive on it, find it, secure and and all perntinanet info, AND you must triangulate it's position in the lake. If it was a Naval aicraft, you then submit your data to the Navy and then they will determine whether or not it can be raised and brought up. BUT...all the data you aquire on any specific aircraft you MUST submit to the Navy, then at that time it goes up for "alledged" sealed bid. Meaning that if one of their good old boys wants it, they get it no matter how much you bid during the process. Nasty buisness, and there is a story that once was written of some many years ago about and enthusiast who spent his own dime to raise a TBM to restore. The Navy caught wind of the project, appeared at his residence and laced the plane on a flatbed and then drove away...without so much as a Thank You for the for the effort or go scr#w yourself. The Navy just drove away with the plane.
Nice people in government aren't they ? And please bear in mind, the gentleman who raised this plane was still on the hook for the salvage job ? The USN never once offered to compensate him on thin dime.
Thanks for reading,
Paul
Last edited by Aircraft Mech Paul on Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:45 am
I agree with Rob that going off and "Flathatting" into lakes to recover Navy birds just hurts the warbird community as a whole and any chances for recovery while they're still worth recovering.
I believe the proper way to approach salvaging aircraft is through proper channels and then petition our gov't when those channels are a dead end. It appears Taurus (A & T) is on the right track with respect to naval aircraft, perhaps we can ask him if we can do anything to aid the argument.
Can we help Taurus?
regards,
t~
I believe the proper way to approach salvaging aircraft is through proper channels and then petition our gov't when those channels are a dead end. It appears Taurus (A & T) is on the right track with respect to naval aircraft, perhaps we can ask him if we can do anything to aid the argument.
Can we help Taurus?
regards,
t~
Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:07 am
Dear Col. Rohr,
The only reason that I brought up my experiance with the potential for salvage and recovery on these former USN Warbirds was because of the topic pertaining to generality of how many might be out there. And I apologise for the early poor typing on my initial note, it was rather late and I had just gotten home from working a 3-11 shift. I have since corrected (I hope) the mispellings that would have promoted misconception. My fault.
As to the idea of my friend's actions. I am understanding that you are reffering to the TBM salvage ? This was someone I had only ready about from an older news clipping from Chicago some time back prior to my friends and I even considering such a buisness in front of us. Which at that point prompted me to contact, at the time due to my being directed to him, The Commander of Great Lakes NAS. I still have the letter and I sumarized what it told me in my previous note. As to the JAG's involvement on any matter, I would have and still would assume that it would have been an internal matter within the USN itself. To make a long story short, while my friends and I dreamed of doing all of what we had hoped of, we never did due to the USN's reply. At the time we felt it just wasn't worth the hassle.
As to the idea of home many aircraft are at the bottom of Lake Michigan...I have heard estimates that run from anywhere from 200 to over 450 aircraft. From what I am told the USN has recovered quite a few aircraft as practice efforts by their underwater salvage experts. Dauntless's, Wildcat's, and the worlds only Vultee Vindicator have been raised from the lake. And there are many more remaining. However I would caution this, as I have seen a SBD that was pulled out, and even contacted about restoring it, but it was FULL of Zebra mussells and along with lake pollution and Zebra Mussell damage it would be a major undertaking for anyone.
Understandably, the USN tradition is to keep aircraft, ships, etc.. on status as "not having returned to port", and thereby their claim to them is kept in perpetuity. I have no problem with the USN. It was their item to do with as it chose and choose to do so.
But he is the conundrum if you will. Why is it that if I were to find a complete P-51, P-47, or P-38, or even a Hurricane or Spitfire, at the bottom of a lake. Take the time, effort, and dollars needed to raise it, restore it, do all the proper paperwork with all the proper government agencies. And no one will make a peep about it. Whereas the USN will cry foul every time ?
As to specualtion of how many watery graves alot of World War II aircraft find themselves in today. A records search would help. But I have read old news articles that place a figure of close to 450+ aircraft at the bottom of Lake Michigan. Everything from trainers to fighters, to torpedo/bomber aircraft. Forgiving the now propensity of the press to inflate things, the articles I refer to were 10 plus years old when I read them back in the 1980's so perhaps their accuracy back then is much greater.
There are many aircraft out there, and good ones for the basis of restoration. It just takes time and above all money.
A final note Col. Rohr, you speak of over 200 freshwater crash sites, all I can say is WOW ! It would seem that there is still a great body of aircraft left hidden to to keep the Warbird movement alive. And lastly, before I forget to mention this as well. It has been speculated that between mainland China and the far Eastern Siberian regions of Russia, there exist upwards of 1500 plus wreck sites. Seems like a treasure trove to me and anyone with an entreprenurial spirit.
Thanks for reading and Col...I wish you the best...sorry for the misconceptions from my earlier post.
Respectfully,
Paul
The only reason that I brought up my experiance with the potential for salvage and recovery on these former USN Warbirds was because of the topic pertaining to generality of how many might be out there. And I apologise for the early poor typing on my initial note, it was rather late and I had just gotten home from working a 3-11 shift. I have since corrected (I hope) the mispellings that would have promoted misconception. My fault.
As to the idea of my friend's actions. I am understanding that you are reffering to the TBM salvage ? This was someone I had only ready about from an older news clipping from Chicago some time back prior to my friends and I even considering such a buisness in front of us. Which at that point prompted me to contact, at the time due to my being directed to him, The Commander of Great Lakes NAS. I still have the letter and I sumarized what it told me in my previous note. As to the JAG's involvement on any matter, I would have and still would assume that it would have been an internal matter within the USN itself. To make a long story short, while my friends and I dreamed of doing all of what we had hoped of, we never did due to the USN's reply. At the time we felt it just wasn't worth the hassle.
As to the idea of home many aircraft are at the bottom of Lake Michigan...I have heard estimates that run from anywhere from 200 to over 450 aircraft. From what I am told the USN has recovered quite a few aircraft as practice efforts by their underwater salvage experts. Dauntless's, Wildcat's, and the worlds only Vultee Vindicator have been raised from the lake. And there are many more remaining. However I would caution this, as I have seen a SBD that was pulled out, and even contacted about restoring it, but it was FULL of Zebra mussells and along with lake pollution and Zebra Mussell damage it would be a major undertaking for anyone.
Understandably, the USN tradition is to keep aircraft, ships, etc.. on status as "not having returned to port", and thereby their claim to them is kept in perpetuity. I have no problem with the USN. It was their item to do with as it chose and choose to do so.
But he is the conundrum if you will. Why is it that if I were to find a complete P-51, P-47, or P-38, or even a Hurricane or Spitfire, at the bottom of a lake. Take the time, effort, and dollars needed to raise it, restore it, do all the proper paperwork with all the proper government agencies. And no one will make a peep about it. Whereas the USN will cry foul every time ?
As to specualtion of how many watery graves alot of World War II aircraft find themselves in today. A records search would help. But I have read old news articles that place a figure of close to 450+ aircraft at the bottom of Lake Michigan. Everything from trainers to fighters, to torpedo/bomber aircraft. Forgiving the now propensity of the press to inflate things, the articles I refer to were 10 plus years old when I read them back in the 1980's so perhaps their accuracy back then is much greater.
There are many aircraft out there, and good ones for the basis of restoration. It just takes time and above all money.
A final note Col. Rohr, you speak of over 200 freshwater crash sites, all I can say is WOW ! It would seem that there is still a great body of aircraft left hidden to to keep the Warbird movement alive. And lastly, before I forget to mention this as well. It has been speculated that between mainland China and the far Eastern Siberian regions of Russia, there exist upwards of 1500 plus wreck sites. Seems like a treasure trove to me and anyone with an entreprenurial spirit.
Thanks for reading and Col...I wish you the best...sorry for the misconceptions from my earlier post.
Respectfully,
Paul
Lake Michigan Airplanes
Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:51 pm
I believe you will find there were a little over one hundred lost naval World War II airplanes in Lake Michigan airplane.
go to:
www.ATRecovery.com
to learn more.
Taras
go to:
www.ATRecovery.com
to learn more.
Taras
Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:00 pm
I posted back in Feb about Lake Murray in South Carolina and it contents. Of which one B-25 has been recovered and another supposedly here soon.
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2754&highlight=
Shay
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2754&highlight=
Shay