Mystery B-17 in Larkins book

[Chris Brame]

On page 109 of William T. Larkins' book Surplus WWII U.S. Aircraft there's a photo of a Navy P2B-2S (B-29) taken at Van Nuys, CA in August of 1949. In the right background of the photo is a B-17F showing the tail number "290431" - but 42-90431 is a BT-13B serial. It also carries a training field code of "L 17" on the fin and below the cockpit windows. Props and accessory cowls are missing. Anyone have info on this one?

Paging Mr. Larkins (and aerovin2 while I'm at it)...

[WallyB]

I don't have anything to add except that it's not a mis-paint of 230431 as some have suggested.

3 June - A B-17F-100-BO Flying Fortress, 42-30431, flown by Ira R. Johnston of the 90th Ferry Squadron, 7th Ferry Group, flying to Grand Island, Nebraska from Pendleton Army Air Base in Oregon crashed on Bomber Mountain in the Big Horn Mountains of Wyoming. 10 crew members were killed.

[Steve Nelson]

Is it just me, or is there something weird about the engine cowlings? They look almost undersized, and with no curved "lip" on the leading edges. I know early B-17s had a separate cowl ring, but I believe they went with a three-segment design starting with the E-model.

SN

[bipe215]

No cowl flaps or belly turrets and the belly looks rough, probably wheeled up. Can't explain that number though.

Steve

[Jesse C.]

Possible movie prop?

[TonyM]

I don't have anything to add except that it's not a mis-paint of 230431 as some have suggested.

3 June - A B-17F-100-BO Flying Fortress, 42-30431, flown by Ira R. Johnston of the 90th Ferry Squadron, 7th Ferry Group, flying to Grand Island, Nebraska from Pendleton Army Air Base in Oregon crashed on Bomber Mountain in the Big Horn Mountains of Wyoming. 10 crew members were killed.

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WallyB


Where did you get this information concerning 42-30431? It is totally incorrect. Johnston's accident was non-fatal. It was a take-off accident . Occurred on 3 June 1943 at Cheyenne, Wyoming.

Here is the link.


http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... Submit4=Go

TOA = take-off accident. If it were fatal, it would be KTOA. This is a good list .

I have all the WWII AAF accident reports on microfilm (514 reels); I will go down stairs and check the film, but I am pretty sure that I am correct.

If Johnston's accident were fatal, it would be in my book,
FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945,
which is a comprehensive listing of all fatal AAF accidents that occurred in the United States during WWII.
This book (three volumes) has over 32,000 individual index entries and is the "go-to" book for this kind of research.


Back to B-17F # 42-30431.


I just checked the AAF Form No. 14 Aircraft Accident Report on micro film.

B-17F # 42-30431 was involved in a non-fatal take-off accident on 3 June 1943 at Cheyenne, Wyoming.
The crew was uninjured.
They were:
Pilot: 2Lt. Ira R. Johnston
Co-pilot: 2Lt. James Sidie
Engineer: SSgt. John Welch

The report contains a signed statement by 2Lt. Ira R. Johnston.

See Army Air Forces Form No. 14 Aircraft Accident Reports Microfilm; Call # 46210; 3 June 1943; Accident # 72.



Still trying to solve the original question.

TonyM.

Last edited by TonyM on Mon May 09, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[TonyM]

I don't have anything to add except that it's not a mis-paint of 230431 as some have suggested.

3 June - A B-17F-100-BO Flying Fortress, 42-30431, flown by Ira R. Johnston of the 90th Ferry Squadron, 7th Ferry Group, flying to Grand Island, Nebraska from Pendleton Army Air Base in Oregon crashed on Bomber Mountain in the Big Horn Mountains of Wyoming. 10 crew members were killed.

WallyB,
The airplane that crashed at Big Horn Mountains, Wyoming, was B-17F # 42-3399, which crashed on 29 June 1943 about 18 miles NNE of Ten Sleep, Wyoming. Johnston was not the pilot. The airplane was not found until 11 Aug 1945. See Army Air Forces Form No. 14 Aircraft Accident Reports Microfilm, Call # 46219. For a detailed summary of this accident see Page 421, Volume I, FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945.

TonyM.

[51fixer]

My guess is it was used as some form of ground training simulator.
Previous accident damage could lend it to this type of use.
Van Nuys might have been a repair depot/pilot or crew training facility of some sort IIRC.
If the engines had to be run for extended periods of time then the modified cowl set up would allow that without over temps on the cylinders.
I've seen various setups for fighters where P-38s and Mustangs are bolted in place or suspended in concrete blocks to allow a simulated T-O, gear retract, engine start, ect.
Wonder if this was used in a similar fashion.
I could see a belly landing repair or post ferry flight but the cowlings really don't make sense.

[WallyB]

Where did you get this information concerning 42-30431? It is totally incorrect. Johnston's accident was non-fatal. It was a take-off accident . Occurred on 3 June 1943 at Cheyenne, Wyoming.

It popped up on google* while I was searching for 42-30431; there were several hits but on re-searching it looks like they all come from the same (incorrect) source as the wording is identical viz.

3 June - A B-17F-100-BO Flying Fortress, 42-30431, flown by Ira R. Johnston of the 90th Ferry Squadron, 7th Ferry Group, [167] flying to Grand Island, Nebraska from Pendleton Army Air Base in Oregon crashes on Bomber Mountain in the Big Horn Mountains of Wyoming. 10 crew members were killed.

How can anyone garble the date and the serial that badly ?

Sorry for the red herring .

* second page of this query "42-30431 +B-17"

[TonyM]

According to Roger Freeman's great B-17 serial number book, these are all of the legit B-17 serial numbers that end in 431:

41-24431
42-3431
42-5431
42-30431
42-31431
42-102431
43-38431
43-39431
44-6431
44-8431
44-83431




TonyM.

[SaxMan]

If the B-29 in the foreground is a Navy plane, perhaps the B-17 is, too? Maybe the number is a Navy Bureau number?

[Second Air Force]

That airplane is likely one of the faceless, nameless crew or gunnery trainers that populated 2nd and 3rd Air Force stations right up to the end of the war. The "L" code possibly denotes assignment to Laredo AAF, either for the gunnery school or in support of the later B-29/B-32 training programs. I have no idea about the incorrect serial number, but it's possible that it is a "typo" done when the airplane was repainted. Perhaps after the takeoff incident that Tony has posted the airplane was refurbished and the wrong number was applied.....

[hang the expense]

The aerials underneath the tail are intact and the Football is missing which looks like the mains collapsed with the tailgear extended.That serial is a repaint and somebody got it wrong.The bars on the stars look added to me so maybe she is an early F.A new mission in trying to find out this ones I.D.

[res6kgcr]

Friends,

Here is another photo of the Mystery B-17 for what is worth.



If it is 42-30431 it was sent to several AAF technical schools before being sent to the 423BS/306BG at Thurleigh in Oct 1943. With this in mind and the ball turret being removed maybe it was one of the first H2X radar ships?

It return to the U.S. 21 June 1944 and then was sent to the Ford run engine mechanic school at Willow Run. Then it was sent as surplus to RFC Altus 29 Oct 1945.

It has been repainted since they are no Eight AF code letters and the radio call number has been relocated lower on the tail for the field number. The field letter L was not used for the gunnery trainers at Laredo AAF but a three digit number on the nose and tail or near the tail on the B-24s on the base. The RP-63s “Pinball” frangible bullet ‘target’ trainers used a infix field letter L i.e. 1L87

Since it was flown to Van Nuys, CA maybe someone might have the civilian registration number and a AAF serial number since they were few civilian B-17Fs.

Best to you all,

Tom Michel

[CoastieJohn]

Ref the B-17 crash in the Big Horns.....

If you haven't seen this yet, here is a trip report of some hikers that hiked to the crash site circa 2007. They have some good pics of the wreckage. Pretty interesting.

http://www.summitpost.org/bomber-mountain/333799