WWII aces listing

[b29flteng]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... lying_aces

[Adam Kline]

Ralph Hofer is missing on the list.

Adam Kline

[Stoney]

So is Clayton Kelly Gross = 6
I have met him and Rex Barber

[Badman]

Capt. Ralph Taylor is also missing - 1st ace in the 325th with 6 kills.

[Mudge]

Am I correct in assuming that the incredible number of German and Russian aces are because of the fact they they were "in the cockpit" until they died or the war ended and our guys were "sat down" after "X" number of missions?

Mudge the curious

[Adam Kline]

Yes, The beginning of the list explained that. The German pilots also used an honor system and nobody really questioned their reports. After the war when their files were opened up and studied there were more then a few instances of German exaggeration. Eric Hartman claimed that he shot down Ralph Hofer over Mostar Yugaslovia. Only problem was he was no where near Mostar when Hofer was shot down by flak. His claim was he shot down a mustang with a mule painted on the side. Funny thing was Hofer was not even flying his assigned plane and his plane survived the air battle that day unscathed. I now look at those totals from Luftwaffe pilots with a huge grain of salt. Even Allied pilots had their totals reviewed after the war and usually revised.

[DaveM2]

That isn't correct, German claims had to verified by at least the wingman. There a large discussions/verification of claims etc on the 12 O'Clock High forums for those who want to know more.

Of course there was overclaiming-par for the course in the heat of battle. There is also the case of one Staffel in Nth Africa fiddling their claims deliberately, who were caught out by their own colleagues and severely punished.


Dave

[Ploesti]

Try this explanation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmati ... rld_War_II

[JohnTerrell]

Am I correct in assuming that the incredible number of German and Russian aces are because of the fact they they were "in the cockpit" until they died or the war ended and our guys were "sat down" after "X" number of missions?

Mudge the curious

Mudge, that is something that Gunther Rall would bring up quite often in interviews. For he and other 'high-scoring' Luftwaffe aces, they clocked 3-4 years or more of combat flying, where as most U.S. fighter pilots were rotated home ater an average of 50-missions (some of whom would return for another 'tour').

[Mudge]

Is it also true that the Germans counted a/c destroyed on the ground as kills? I think I recall that the allies didn't do that until late in the war. I'd appreciate any info on the subject. This old dog can still learn, ya' know.

Mudge the educable

[DaveM2]

Is it also true that the Germans counted a/c destroyed on the ground as kills? I think I recall that the allies didn't do that until late in the war. I'd appreciate any info on the subject. This old dog can still learn, ya' know.

Mudge the educable

No, ground kills were not counted.

IIRC only the USAAF counted these as kills, from the get go.
Many of these 'target' aircraft were unservicable or mock ups, particularly late in the war.

Of course German AA was perhaps best in the world at that time, and attacking an airfield wasn't for the feint hearted and probably resulted in more losses than aerial combat in 1945.

Dave

[Ploesti]

That would be correct regarding 1945

[Adam Kline]

How is it that almost all US pilots had there claims after the war lowered. The Air Force checked their claims against Air Force flight reports and German loss reports--that's how. There were statistics made by the U. S. Air Force after the war that proved a lot of Axis pilots in the ET must have exaggerated a lot. German claims sometimes exceeded the sorties flown for the day in a particular zone. Yes, in the heat of battle a probable doesn't mean a kill and a wing man isn't always reliable as a witness. The Air Force was quite thorough.

[DaveM2]

How is it that almost all US pilots had there claims after the war lowered. The Air Force checked their claims against Air Force flight reports and German loss reports--that's how. There were statistics made by the U. S. Air Force after the war that proved a lot of Axis pilots in the ET must have exaggerated a lot. German claims sometimes exceeded the sorties flown for the day in a particular zone. Yes, in the heat of battle a probable doesn't mean a kill and a wing man isn't always reliable as a witness. The Air Force was quite thorough.

The Luftwaffe did the same thing with their pilot's claims during the war, with typical German efficiency, up until at least early 1944 when they gave away air supremacy and could not devote the resources to verify claims, even if most combat was thereafter over 'home territory.'

There is no doubt that late war claims would have been reduced, and in fact have been, by 'modern' researchers who have in recent years cross checked available records, particularly those which have become available in Russia. (see the forums I mentioned)

But really, when it comes down to it, even 'if' the likes of Hartman's claims were 'only' 50 % correct, his (and the other top aces) piloting and gunnery skills were darn impressive, by anyone's standards.
The world we never see the likes of these combat pilots, no matter on which side they flew, ever again.

As an aside, by far the worst overclaimers were the USAAF bomber crews - understandable with hundreds of guns shooting at the same aircraft.

[Mudge]

Thanks for the info. I knew I could count on youse troops to have a lot of well researched facts.

Mudge the mollified