"Ace" credit for strafing victories?

[Stephan Wilkinson]

Somebody told me that relatively late in WWII, the AF decided to credit pilots for aircraft destroyed on the ground. I'd never heard this and wonder it it's true; I certainly don't think there were any official aces who got their five victories by strafing. But were pilots then allowed to paint victory icons on their aircraft for ground kills, or is the whole thing an urban legend?

[jmkendall]

My understanding is that only aerial victories were counted toward "Ace" status. However; ground kills were also credited to a pilot. Just like bombing missions. Just in a different category.

People talk all the time about the Bongs and McGuires. But there were some Pilots out there with over a hundred ground attack missions that we never hear about. Pilots that flew through heavy AAA time after time. Pilots that destroyed dozens of tanks. Saved hundreds of lives with their attacks.

Being an Ace is an achievement worthy of emulation, but I ask you, at the end of the day whose missions saved more lives, cost the enemy more, and made a greater impact on the war?

[k5083]

The 8th AF was the one air force in all of WWII that awarded its pilots full credit for ground kills.

"Ace" status was not officially recognized by the AF, or most other air arms; that's an informal media/propaganda concept. So it is a personal decision whether to count ground kills towards one's own conception of ace status.

Osprey included a book about them, "Down to Earth: Strafing Aces of the Eighth Air Force," as part of its Aircraft of the Aces series.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/% ... 1841764375
http://www.amazon.com/Earth-Strafing-Ei ... 184176437X

August

[JohnB]

It's probably a misunderstanding based on the fact pilots got ground credits.
We tend to think 5 credits = "ace"...when in fact we should be thinking five ground credits (he gets to paint hem on the side of his plane)...may not equal "ace".
And like k5083 says, "ace" is a PR term...there is not a USAAF/USAF "ace" medal.

[shrike]

And other nations used different criteria as well. Some scored four-engined bombers as worth three or four fighters for the purpose of tallies.
Makes sense when you think of it. One on one air combat may be where the glory is, but it doesn't really advance the strategic goals of the campaign.

Last edited by shrike on Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[jmkendall]

It's probably a misunderstanding based on the fact pilots got ground credits.
We tend to think 5 credits = "ace"...when in fact we should be thinking five ground credits (he gets to paint hem on the side of his plane)...may not equal "ace".
And like k5083 says, "ace" is a PR term...there is not a USAAF/USAF "ace" medal.

But the modern day Air Force gives medals for shooting a paper target correctly with an M-16!

Just a friendly jab at my Air Force buddies!

Seriously, there may have been no "Ace" medal, but I'm pretty sure that once you got your first five kills confirmed they gave you a DFM w/V; if not a DFC

[Adam Kline]

Shooting airplanes on the ground was way more difficult that shooting them in the air. Many a great pilot were shot down while strafing. It should count that same.

[TROJANII]

It's probably a misunderstanding based on the fact pilots got ground credits.
We tend to think 5 credits = "ace"...when in fact we should be thinking five ground credits (he gets to paint hem on the side of his plane)...may not equal "ace".
And like k5083 says, "ace" is a PR term...there is not a USAAF/USAF "ace" medal.

But the modern day Air Force gives medals for shooting a paper target correctly with an M-16!

We learned it from our Army bretheran.

[Randy Haskin]

No kill credits given today for aircraft destroyed on the ground, unfortunately.

[RickH]

What about the Air Medals awarded to drone pilots ?

[TOM WALSH]

Here's another tidbit of information on this subject to ponder;

On July 5, 1944, word came down from RAF Fighter Command's 11 Group that any V-1 shot down over the sea would count the same as an enemy aircraft destroyed in the air. One brought down over land, would only count as half a victory. The difference being that a Buzz Bomb containing 1,870 pounds of Amatol-39 high explosive that could be detonated over water, was far less dangerous to life and property than one exploded on or over land. The Military code name for the Fieseler Fi-103 V-1 Flying Bomb was "Diver". It was a primitive example of a weapon that would come to be known years later as the Cruise Missile. Altogether, 9,521 V-1's were fired at England and 2,448 were launched against Belgium. The cost in lives was staggering - 22,448 casualties, most of whom were civilians.

Cheers,

Tom Walsh.

[John Dupre]

Certainly the 8th Air Force counted ground kills as well as air kills equally toward ace status however unofficial that status was. Early accounts of leading aces like Don Gentile claim he was first to match Eddie Rickenbackers 26 victories but that includes at least 6 ground kills. I think the 14th Air Force also credited ground kills as John C Herbst was once considered the leading American figher ace with 41 victories but many of those were ground or strafing kills and his actual aerial total was much lower. The old book "Five Down and Glory" had a pretty good accounting of which units allowed ground kills and which did not.

Post war the USAF established the Fighter Credits Review Board to review all aerial victory claims in American service from WW1 on. There are a number of accounts of pilots being credited as ace many years after WW2 when corroborating evidence was presented.

[k5083]

One problem with ground kills is the near impossibility of confirmation. Many kills were no doubt claimed of planes that were hardly damaged or not even touched. When the plane can't fall out of the sky, it is hard to know it has been destroyed.

Postwar analysis of kills claimed against enemy records robustly found that fighter pilots of all nations over-claimed aerial kills by factors ranging from 2x to 5x. Ground kill over-claiming probably was worse. If there had been a truly accurate accounting, perhaps half of aces would have had their status taken away; perhaps more. For obvious reasons this was never done.

August

[JohnB]

No kill credits given today for aircraft destroyed on the ground, unfortunately.

Too bad, there would be plenty of B-1, B-52 "aces".

[Dan Johnson II]

I'd imagine it was used as incentive to get the pilots down on the deck in what was clearly a more hazardous duty. Seems like I remember reading that only one 8th AF Ace went down in air combat, Kidd Hofer of the 4th, while all the others that were shot down were to ground fire. Thinking Beeson, Godfrey, Gabreski was on a strafing run, etc.