Goering Comment

[mlenoch]

The 352nd FG web page quotes the following:

"The only officially approved insignia worn by members of the 352nd (except for the 21st) was designed by Sam Perry. Sam completed the artwork from photographs of Lt Karl M. Waldron, Jr, a 487th pilot who posed in a diaper as the "little bastard" carrying the machine gun in the insignia. This design and that reference may have contributed to the origin of the Group's recognition as the "Bluenosed Bastards of Bodney". However, the preferred origin of this title is the legend that Hermann Goering, who headed up Germany's Luftwaffe, once said: "I knew the war was lost when I saw the 'bluenosed bastards of Bodney' over Berlin." "

Was this the accurate comment by Goering or were his words "I Knew the war was lost when I saw Mustangs over Berlin"? ......or some variation. Is there an official transcript or such of this quote from Goering?

Thx,
VL

[lmritger]

Vlado, you've got it almost exactly right... the quote was, "When I saw Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the war was lost." It was a color-agnostic statement.

Lynn

[WallyB]

I know of no source which actually documents what Goering said, or when.

It's usually given as "When* I saw Mustangs over Berlin I knew the jig was up".
We can put the 352nd's claim down to embellishment I think; Goering would have needed superhero eyesight to be able to identify the squadron markings of P-51s at 15000ft. Let alone know where they were based.

* or "The day...", or the version from lmritger ; any or all of which may be apocryphal anyway.

[JohnTerrell]

In other tellings of the story, Goering is simply said to have looked up and saw fighters escorting the American bombers over Berlin, and said "the jig is up". The fighters he happened to be referring to were Mustangs, but going back to older and older sources, it never mentions that he actually called them out as such.

[k5083]

I never heard the version quoted from the 352nd website before, but I love this evolution of increasingly improbable versions of something HG may or may not ever have said at all. Soon it will be, "I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

August

[maxum96]

My grandfather was a member of the 352nd (support staff). If I remember what he told me correctly, they (aircrews) named themselves that.

[JDK]

Like a lot of 'a member of the enemy said of us' it's highly likely to be a complete myth.

However there is a record of something he most likely did say, that is related, and remarkably it's famous for its inclusion in a film (Battle of Britain).

"No enemy bomber can reach the Ruhr. If one reaches the Ruhr, my name is not Goering. You may call me Meyer."
Addressing the Luftwaffe (September 1939) as quoted in August 1939: The Last Days of Peace (1979) by Nicholas Fleming, p. 171; "Meyer" (or "Meier") is a common name in Germany. This statement would come back to haunt him as Allied bombers devastated Germany; many ordinary Germans, especially in Berlin, took to calling him "Meier". It is said that he once himself introduced himself as "Meier" when taking refuge in an air-raid shelter in Berlin.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

[muddyboots]

I never heard the version quoted from the 352nd website before, but I love this evolution of increasingly improbable versions of something HG may or may not ever have said at all. Soon it will be, "I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

August

Meet my new Sig.

[JDK]

You haven't credited it to 'June' (an improved August).

[muddyboots]

The difficulties of attributing it to August, and pointing out that it is a bastardization of a possible quote by Goering, mute the joke.

[SaxMan]

Like a lot of 'a member of the enemy said of us' it's highly likely to be a complete myth.

However there is a record of something he most likely did say, that is related, and remarkably it's famous for its inclusion in a film (Battle of Britain).

"No enemy bomber can reach the Ruhr. If one reaches the Ruhr, my name is not Goering. You may call me Meyer."
Addressing the Luftwaffe (September 1939) as quoted in August 1939: The Last Days of Peace (1979) by Nicholas Fleming, p. 171; "Meyer" (or "Meier") is a common name in Germany. This statement would come back to haunt him as Allied bombers devastated Germany; many ordinary Germans, especially in Berlin, took to calling him "Meier". It is said that he once himself introduced himself as "Meier" when taking refuge in an air-raid shelter in Berlin.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

I also believe that Meyer was a fairly common German Jewish surname, which certainly would have added a bit more weight to the comment "You may call me Meyer", and likewise for those who were the receiving weight of the bombs to call him "Meyer".

[Rauhbatz]

Bob Powell may know...I can ask him if he has any recollections...

BTW Vlado...I didn't know I was speaking to a fellow WIX'er when I came up to you at Oshkosh asking for John O'Connor...was relieved to see his tailwheel get out of the muck

[CDF]

In other tellings of the story, Goering is simply said to have looked up and saw fighters escorting the American bombers over Berlin, and said "the jig is up"..

I believe the actual full quote is:

General Spaatz asked Hermann Goering, soon after his capture, when he first realized that the Nazis were defeated. Goering replied, "When I saw your bombers over Berlin protected by your long-range fighters, I knew then that the Luftwaffe would be unable to stop your bombers. Our weapons plants would be destroyed; our defeat was inevitable."

The Combined Bomber Offensive: Classical and Revolutionary,
Combined and Divided, Planned and Fortuitous
Noble Frankland
Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1968

And variations on that theme

When I saw escort fighters over Hanover, I became worried. When I saw escort fighters over Berlin, I knew the jig was up.

The first time your bombers came over Hanover, escorted by fighters, I began to be worried. When they came with fighter escorts over Berlin — I knew the jig was up.

Interview with Goring conducted by Major Kenneth W. Hechler U.S. Army Europe's Historical Division, with Captain Herbert R. Sensenig serving as translator
July 25, 1945

Hechler: Despite correct estimates of our potential, what made you think that you could emerge victorious in a war against us?

Göring: We had assessed the capacity of your air force especially well. The best engines were produced in the United States. We used to work on your engines and bought up every kind we could. Since the end of the last war, Germany had fallen behind in the air, while U.S. commercial aviation was far ahead of us. But in the beginning, we had not fully assessed the possibility of daylight bombers. Our fighters could not cope with them. When we were able to do so, there was a pause and then you sent them out with fighter escort. The Flying Fortress, for example, had more than we had anticipated. Our estimate was incorrect.

http://www.historynet.com/lost-prison-i ... ations.htm

[Dan Johnson II]

The 4th FG book first published in 1946, '1000 Destroyed' gives that credit to Don Blakeslee and the 4th as their Mustangs were the first over Berlin. It also says Goering saw red nosed Mustangs, but since they hadn't been painted red at that time it would have been tough to pick a color. That would tend to kill any idea of seeing blue nosers and identifying them as well as the nose colors for the Fighter Groups were added after the missions to Berlin first happened.

I wonder if Jack Jenkins and the P38 drivers who were over Berlin two days earlier took offense?

[JDK]

Good bit of digging, CDF, and and another piece of the jigsaw. What's interesting is it's a reliable attribution of what Goering said in 1945, and thought (but did not claim to have said to anyone) in 1944.

Colo(u)r is a pretty certain mythical element, as colour is one of the first things to vanish at distance. Had the suggestion been that Goering had a report from a Luftwaffe airman who tangled with aircraft identified by colour, then there might be credence; but not from the ground, and the quotes are all consistent as Goering's own view.

Regards,