Seemingly endless Spitfire & Mustang restorations

[Pat Carry]

I subscribe to 3 aviation publications, Air Classics, Classics Wings and Warbird Digest. What I find amazing is the seemingly endless Spitfire and Mustang restorations mentioned in these 3 magazines month after month. The question I have is there still enough of these planes needing restoration to go on indefinately?

[JohnB]

I suspect many are "Data Plate" restorations...have a part, build a plane around it.

I wonder if they have any WWII-era metal in their airframes?

[The Inspector]

I suspect many are "Data Plate" restorations...have a part, build a plane around it.

I wonder if they have any WWII-era metal in their airframes?

Just try getting a 'data plate' rebuild of a 55 Chevy past your local DMV

[51fixer]

I subscribe to 3 aviation publications, Air Classics, Classics Wings and Warbird Digest. What I find amazing is the seemingly endless Spitfire and Mustang restorations mentioned in these 3 magazines month after month. The question I have is there still enough of these planes needing restoration to go on indefinately?

Some of these restorations are rebuilds of A/C that were recently airworthy.
Time marches on and corrosion and wear and tear are forces that take considerable effort and resources to combat.
So I would say that you will continue to see restorations as owners wish to keep their aircraft in the best of condition.
FARs allow you to replace parts in ordinary maintenance. I've seen an R-2800 with 20,000 hrs in the logbook. I doubt if any part on the engine when I saw it was the same as when it rolled out of the factory but yet it was considered to be that engine and it had that much time in service.

[JohnB]

I suspect many are "Data Plate" restorations...have a part, build a plane around it.

I wonder if they have any WWII-era metal in their airframes?

Just try getting a 'data plate' rebuild of a 55 Chevy past your local DMV

Easy, buy a rust bucket.
But a new 57 convertible body.
Attach serial tag to new body.

Serials back then don't say much of anything, certainly not rngine type or body style. Not even year.
No 16-didit VIN codes back then.
When I registered my 63 Avanti, no one checked anything, let alone the "hidden serial".

In the antique aircraft world, as long as you have the paperwork, you can build a 99% new aircraft.
Do you really think the few flying Jennies have their original wood...or the CAF "Red Tail" is made up of NAA riveted metal (even after its fatal crash a few years back)?

Last edited by JohnB on Thu May 02, 2013 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Red Baaron]

I've had several antique motorcycles and scooters that were basically data plate rebuilds. Nothing to it!

[Chris Brame]

OTOH, what would be the most factory, time capsule, original Mustang out there - static or flying? There are a few Spitfires that come to mind (like the one here in Chicago at the Museum of Science and Industry), but it seems like all the existing P-51s are restorations. Maybe the D at the NMUSAF?

[JohnTerrell]

The two most complete/time capsule Mustangs (least changed/touched since original manufacture, and complete) that I'm aware of are P-51D-25-NA 44-73349 on display at the Swiss Air Force Museum (this aircraft still retains its original internal paint and finishes, everywhere (and about 98-99% the same configuration/hardware - due to relatively minor modifications in Swiss AF service), from original manufacture, and P-51D-30-NA 44-74939 on display at the NASM (retired to the museum after only little more than 200 hrs on the clock). While the interiors of both of these aircraft are just about entirely left alone since original manufacture, the exteriors of both of these aircraft have of course been repainted. The P-51K-10-NT 44-12116 "Second Fiddle", on display at the Crawford Aviation Museum, and the P-51K-10-NT 44-12125 on display in the Netherlands at the Luchtvaart Museum, are also in this same category, but are just a bit less complete (44-12125, the example on display in the Netherlands, is listed as having originally been part of the 78th FG (Duxford) before going to the Netherlands following the end of WWII).

[Taigh Ramey]

Some shots I took of the Crawford K in an old thread:

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10042&hilit=+crawford

An amazing aircraft that looks like it was factory bone stock and then they pulled the fuselage tank, attitude and DG instruments out and raced it as is. I can see that the wing was off of the fuselage at one point but otherwise it is just as she came from Dallas. Even has, or had, the factory airfoil smoother on the wings to 30% MAC. It was flaking off in places and you can see that it was pink colored which makes me wonder if it was how Bondo was created. What came first NAA's Airfoil Smoother or Bondo as an automotive body filler? I will have to Google that...

I heard that the museum was going to strip and paint it. I sure hope they didn't mess with it at all. What a rare bird.








So imagine the contractor for North American Dallas cutting out the firewall armor plate and stacking them on a skid to ship to the factory. They stencil the top plate on the stack with the shipping information and off it goes. NAA takes the top plate and fits it to this Mustang and leaves the shipping stencilling and paint right from the contractor. Too cool. There was a war on.

Personally I would give extra points to this if seen in a restoration whereas a lot of shops wouldn't even dream of doing something like that.

[DH82EH]

Thanks for the info John and thanks for the photos Taigh.
It would be all to easy for a well meaning restorer, to unintentionally trample, a time capsule machine in order to "freshen up" its appearance. It has happened in the past. Lets hope this doesn't happen here.
It's details and research like this that leads to the restoration bar being raised higher and higher.
I like to see a wide array of types, especially rare and obscure ones coming to light. I have to confess though, that I'm looking forward to "Passion Wagon" from Mike Vadeboncoeur and midwest aero. I'm sure the bar will get nudged a little higher still

Andy Scott

[JohnTerrell]

Thank you for posting those photos, Taigh! I've got a photo of the cockpit of the K-10-NT in the Netherlands, and you can tell that they were very close to one another on the production floor, as the cockpit details (which changed with every production block) are identical between the two (including that rare stencil below the aileron trim wheel, that says 'Land Gear Down', with an arrow, which is not often seen). While the airframe that is "Second Fiddle" served as a state-side trainer during WWII and would have likely just retained the factory-installed N-9 reflector gun sight, the example in the Netherlands, which is said to have been part of the 78th FG, shows signs of having had a K-14 gun sight installed in the field (which it no longer has).

Andy, I too am really looking forward to Midwest Aero's latest. According to Warbird Digest, that particular project (44-63576) switched owners rather recently (now owned by Jon Vesely) and so a different paint scheme is in mind it sounds like. They say that it is hoped that the aircraft will be flying early this summer.

One project that should absolutely gobsmack anyone who hasn't already been following it, is the restoration of the combat vet "Sierra Sue II" at Aircorps Aviation. Everything on this project is being done to recreate the look of the original production (part by part, rivet by rivet), and to have the aircraft configured exactly as it was during the war, an early production P-51D-20-NA. Unlike any other P-51 restoration that has come before, parts and assemblies are being primered/painted in the order that they originally did. The result is the type of over-spray that you see in original production, rather than a perfect uniform finish. Many parts when primered were simply dipped, so in the restoration you see the same type of runs in the primer that you do in the original un-restored parts. For the rivets being used for the project, they are reproduced to match the original finishes, including clear-anodized, blue-anodized, and iridite (which has a yellowish finish) - on the shop floor, the use of these rivets was random, from one to the next, because the anodized and iridite rivets were just poured together, and this authentic random pattern of silver/yellow (and sometimes blue) rivets over the airframe can be seen in this restoration. Like as was done with 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy' and several restorations since then, the original Alclad manufacturer's watermarks are found recreated on the skins, and in places where spot welding occurred, acid is brushed onto the metal (as done at the factory to quickly clean the metal before welding).

For comparison with the Crawford P-51K cockpit which Taigh very kindly posted photos of above, here's a photo of the cockpit of her sister in the Netherlands (note the cut-out in the instrument panel shroud, which was a common modification with K-14 installations to move the gun sight forward more, away from the pilot's head a bit -this aircraft would have originally come from the factory with an N-9 installed, but as mentioned shows signs of having had a K-14 installed while in service):

[JohnTerrell]

Taigh, it is also interesting that the Crawford Museum's P-51K is yet more proof that the wing filler was indeed pink. There's an original ETO P-51D right-hand wing on display at some museum in Europe, that was recovered from a crash and still retains most all of the paint (including the black identification stripe, as used up until late 1944). Where the dull silver dope painted finish on the wings has flaked off, you can see the pink filler showing through as well.

[T-28mike]

The gear handle on the pic of the Netherlands aircraft appears to be in the "up" position.

[Mike Banks]

The Crawford Museum Mustang was owned and flown by Bob Swanson of Georgia, hes alive and well into his mid 90's! He has some amazing flying stories!

[Chris Brame]

Thanks for the info - forgot about the one at the NASM. I figured since the NMUSAF example came straight to the museum out of ANG service in 1957, it would be all original inside - isn't it?