A little help ID'ing TBM Avenger markings

[Shay]

Hey folks.

I've been going thru and studying up on some of the campaigns my grandfather parcipated in. Below is a picture taken on 20 October 1944 "A-Day" of Operation King II, The Invasion of Leyte Island and the first retaking of the Philipine Islands. The picture is of a TBM Avenger flying over "White" beach during the intial landings (at or around 1000 hrs) after a massive 4 hour long ship based artillery bombardment. As part of the 1st Cavalry Div. my grandfather's regiment was tasked with going in on the initial landing and securing the Tacloban Airdrome, which if you look at the picture, to the extreme right side you'll see the beginings of a peninsula, the airdrome is located on this peninsula. After securing the the airfield with the help of Mechanized reinforcements they moved inland to secure the capitol city of Tacloban itself. Which is, if you look at the picture again, just beyond the neck of the penisula along the coast line. Since this picture is taken at the earliest moments of the landing, it is quite concievible (in my mind at least) that my grandfather is somewhere down there in frame. A few hours after this picture was taken, the now famous picture of Gen. MacArthur and his staff wading ashore was taken. But a little further south on the coastline at "Red" beach instead.

So my question is, can anyone help me to understand the markings or lack there of of markings on this TBM?

I've blown this picture up and played with the contrast and brightness to see if there were any hidden markings that got washed out. But I haven't been able to find any. I thought there might be one just below the national insignia on the rear fuse but that is appearantly a small window.

Can anyone tell if this is a Navy or USMC Avenger?

I've seen another photo of another TBM claimed to be a USMC bird, taken some days or weeks later after this picture at Dulag field, that also appears for the most part markingless. Reason for all this is that I have a TBM Avenger model waiting in my ever growing stash of models and as I soon as I saw this picture I knew this what I wanted to depict.

Now I realize finding out the exact aircraft would be next to impossible but I would be happy with modeling an aircraft from that squadron if at all possible. Thanks in advance for any help.

The Aircraft/Squadron in question:


at Dulag Airfield


Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

Last edited by Shay on Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[avenger2504]

And I see these are either TBF-1 or TBM-1 models too. Is that the model kit you have as there are engine cowling differences between this and the later TBM-3. Amazing to think somewhere down there your Grandfather is there in the photo!! Sorry I cant help with US markings.

[SaxMan]

I would find it hard to believe that would be a Marine Avenger on 10/20/44, as the Navy didn't start putting Marine squadrons aboard their carriers until January 1945, IIRC. It is likely that it was a TBM off an escort carrier, as the fleet carriers started to have some rudimentary markings. Pictures I've seen of Taffy 3 aircraft have also been remarkable devoid of markings.

The later pictures at Dulag would be a better argument for a USMC bird, although it could also be an "orphaned" TBM from one of the escort carriers that were lost at Samar.

[Mark Allen M]

Good morning Shay, that first photo is an Avenger off an escort carrier and possibly off the USS Franklin with my dad flying CAP. Dad's logbook shows a CAP flight over Leyte Oct 20, 1944. He was with the Franklins VF-13 at that time with the Franklin's first kamakazi strike just 10 days away that would almost cause me not to be born lol. I have several photos of the Leyte operations I'll have to look at for comparisons to your first photo. Hope that helps and your grandfather certainly was down there doing a great job I'm certain of that. Much to be proud of.

Mark

[John Dupre]

Franklin was a short hull Essex class carrier CV and not a CVE or escort type. Aside from Saratoga and the Japanese Shinano the Essex types were just about the biggest carriers around. The Avenger could still be off a CVE.

[Mark Allen M]

Franklin was a short hull Essex class carrier CV and not a CVE or escort type. Aside from Saratoga and the Japanese Shinano the Essex types were just about the biggest carriers around. The Avenger could still be off a CVE.

That I well know John, what I mean't was either that Avenger was off a CVE or off the USS Franklin or similar CV in that area. Both types were there.

[Shay]

Thanks everybody. I'm starting the research project of determining which Carriers, Carrier Air Wings and Squadrons were actively supporting the Leyte landings on the morning of the 20th. I did this awhile back for Operation Watchtower (Guadalcanal) and it was really exciting as I was able to come across coordinate information and track the Big E's, Sara's and the Yorktown's movements.

As I'm finding out it's not so black and white as over generalized as history is . I found one resouce that listed all the Carriers that took part in Operation King II but then I found another with different numbers. Turns out the Carriers were jockeyed around from day to day and week to week to different Task Forces and fleet needs. Or showed up on scene after the landings and then left a few weeks later. Would be an awesome and massive undertaking to build a seachable database of Ships/Task Forces/Carrier Group movements that could be cross referenced with Operations. So you have to read carefully I've found.

Avenger2504 - I'm not 100% sure. I'm not familiar hardly at all with the Avenger to pick key model identifiers. It's the classic 1/48 Revell offering and the decal sheets list a TBF-1 and TBM-1. But I'd have to study up and examine the model itself to see it was really a -1. Model Manufacturers have tried to pull fast ones on the consumers in the past with just upgrading the decal sheets with non accurate markings. Regardless considering how personally significant this picture is to me , I wouldn't think twice about using it as an excuse to go out and purchase the another (correct ) model

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[SaxMan]

If it is the Revell 1/48 Avenger that has George Bush's plane as the cover art, it is a TBF-1. This model is a reissue of the Monogram 1/48 TBF from the 60s and 70s, save for the extremely fragile wing folding mechanism on the Monogram model that was deleted on the Revell model.

Have fun with your research! The one thing I've found when undertaking a historical project is that each time you find an answer to one question, it seems to open up other leads to pursue. Sometimes these leads complement your research. Sometimes they take you on a completely divergent course from your original research, but it's definitely one heck of a fun ride.

[ALOHADAVE]

They were using up planes pretty fast and the one in the photo may just be a replacement aircraft from a CASU Carrier Aircraft Service Unit. They were a wartime development to keep Navy planes repaired and operating

See this link for more photos of TBMs
viewtopic.php?p=478306

[lmritger]

First up, let me offer my heartfelt congratulations on taking on a pretty tough assignment- from the very little work I've done on trying to pin down who did what in the PTO, it's often quite tricky given how fluid the battle situations were in that theater. Combine that with the sometimes spotty record-keeping (totally understandable, there was a war on and ops took precedence over paperwork), and you quickly learn that the margin of error for figuring out likely participants is much larger in the PTO than the ETO.

With that said, I'm inclined to agree with Mark that these are aircraft from a CVE. Why? 1, because there is no geometric or numeric marking at all, and every single plane I've ever seen from a fleet carrier has SOME sort of ID on it, if only to aid the flight deck crews for planning. (Not saying it never happened, just saying the odds are against it.) And two, if you look behind the TBF-1C in the color pic, there's an FM-2, then additional Avengers. FM-2s were not in general use on fleet carriers, but they were standard issue on the CVEs. So my somewhat edumacated guess is that these are aircraft from one of the CVE composite squadrons. The next task will be to determine which CVEs were tasked with beachhead support on that date; from there, I can help you pin down which units were assigned to those various CVEs at that date.

And allow me to make a full-throated recommendation that you track down the Accurate Miniatures TBF-1C kit... it is easily one of the greatest model kits released in the past 25 years.

Keep up the good work, and thanks for the pics!

Lynn

[avenger2504]

Thanks everybody. I'm starting the research project of determining which Carriers, Carrier Air Wings and Squadrons were actively supporting the Leyte landings on the morning of the 20th. I did this awhile back for Operation Watchtower (Guadalcanal) and it was really exciting as I was able to come across coordinate information and track the Big E's, Sara's and the Yorktown's movements.

As I'm finding out it's not so black and white as over generalized as history is . I found one resouce that listed all the Carriers that took part in Operation King II but then I found another with different numbers. Turns out the Carriers were jockeyed around from day to day and week to week to different Task Forces and fleet needs. Or showed up on scene after the landings and then left a few weeks later. Would be an awesome and massive undertaking to build a seachable database of Ships/Task Forces/Carrier Group movements that could be cross referenced with Operations. So you have to read carefully I've found.

Avenger2504 - I'm not 100% sure. I'm not familiar hardly at all with the Avenger to pick key model identifiers. It's the classic 1/48 Revell offering and the decal sheets list a TBF-1 and TBM-1. But I'd have to study up and examine the model itself to see it was really a -1. Model Manufacturers have tried to pull fast ones on the consumers in the past with just upgrading the decal sheets with non accurate markings. Regardless considering how personally significant this picture is to me , I wouldn't think twice about using it as an excuse to go out and purchase the another (correct ) model

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

Hi Again Shay. Sounds like the kit you have will be fine. The TBF-1 and TBM-1 were the same. TBF means Grumman built and TBM is General Motors who took over production so Grumman could build that other great Grumman product the Hellcat.
The only differences in the TBF-1/TBM-1 was the original -1 had a 0.30cal nose gun and no wing guns. Along came the -1C which had no nose gun but 0.50cal wing guns. here in New Zealand our Air Force Museum has a Avenger we used (we only had 30 of them) and is a TBF-1 however she has wing guns and the nose gun which is a bit different!
Good luck with your project!