Paging the O-1 Bird Dog Pilot Guru

[Ken]

I may have an opportunity to write a training program for an O-1D. Who is the Mac Daddy Bird Dog pilot resource? I looked at the L-bird page and IBDA page, and although there were some tidbits, I'm looking for the best/widely accepted pilot techniques, training syllabus, guides, or checklists already out there. I found a 1961 copy of TM 55-1510-202-10 but was hoping to compare it to a newer version of a USAF T.O. -1 (assuming the AF manual covers the D-model). As an added bonus, any input from Army or USAF Vietnam FACs on their orbit and rocket pass procedures would be most appreciated.

thanks,
Ken

[Forgotten Field]

1. Use the rudder

2. Land slow.

3. Don't ground loop.

Pretty simple actually.

I am sending you a PM for a friend who has lots of O-1/L-19 time, just bought one to fly again, and I highly respect as a pilot.

[Dudley Henriques]

I may have an opportunity to write a training program for an O-1D. Who is the Mac Daddy Bird Dog pilot resource? I looked at the L-bird page and IBDA page, and although there were some tidbits, I'm looking for the best/widely accepted pilot techniques, training syllabus, guides, or checklists already out there. I found a 1961 copy of TM 55-1510-202-10 but was hoping to compare it to a newer version of a USAF T.O. -1 (assuming the AF manual covers the D-model). As an added bonus, any input from Army or USAF Vietnam FACs on their orbit and rocket pass procedures would be most appreciated.

thanks,
Ken

I flew the L19 a lot in the "old days". We had one on the field under private ownership and used it for photo hops.
The government as always had a manual on it that was a combination in width between War and Peace and a James Michener novel, but trust me, the little bird just needs normal technique used for any light tail wheel airplane.
Nothing complicated or exotic at all about it.
If you actually have been tasked with developing a manual for the airplane there should be available sources of data on line. I honestly can't think of much that couldn't be said on a page or two.
Dudley Henriques

[airnutz]

1. Use the rudder

2. Land slow.

3. Don't ground loop.

Pretty simple actually.

You want the wreckage to come to rest in a neat pile in the center of the runway!

(Sage advice I read on taildragger.com...I think..quite a few years back.)

[L-4Pilot]

Good advice from all of the above and can only add a few things. I have 1500 hrs in Bird Dogs having owned three and flew them towing gliders for may years so have a lot of landings per hours flown. I never had any problem with the aircraft and it is a joy to fly.

1. The Army mission is different from civilian flying needs and so is the training required.
2. The aircraft, like a PT-17 is a different animal on grass than asphalt. You can get away with a lot on grass in an O-1 that will eat your lunch on pavement.
3. Low time pilots should use the 60 degrees of flap with caution especially in full stall three point landings. With experience they are very useful, I used them a lot coming back from a tow to pick up another glider. when landing three point with 60 degrees you better have your flare just right because your speed and inertia bleeds off very rapidly.
4. It is a brake airplane, if the brakes are not working perfectly don't untie it.
5. It handles crosswind landings equally well either three point or by wheel landing but....you reach a point where the wind is such that a wing low wheel landing is more prudent.
6. Army manual recommend 10 degrees of flap on takeoff and it works fine but a lot of pilots forget to put the 10 degrees back up when they should.
7. The gear has a lot of spring loaded cant inwards in flight and the gear legs unload when three point landings are made, and firm is better. If you touch down in a crosswind gently on one gear and the other gear leg touches gently but does not unload when it does it can cause a swerve, easily controllable with experience and when expected.

[Ken]

L-4Pilot,

Thanks - that is the exact sort of wise input I was hoping to receive. The "keep it straight" stuff, although well intended, doesn't convey much. Every airplane, no matter how docile, has its quirks and for an experienced pilot to find & digest these and turn around and teach them in short order can be a challenge - particularly if the goal is to be thorough. I appreciate having the benefit of your experience.

If you think if anything else, please share.

Ken

[Dudley Henriques]

L-4Pilot,

Thanks - that is the exact sort of wise input I was hoping to receive. The "keep it straight" stuff, although well intended, doesn't convey much. Every airplane, no matter how docile, has its quirks and for an experienced pilot to find & digest these and turn around and teach them in short order can be a challenge - particularly if the goal is to be thorough. I appreciate having the benefit of your experience.

If you think if anything else, please share.

Ken

Interesting post.

Dudley Henriques

[Ken]

Dudley, always appreciate your perspective and big thanks to L-4Pilot.

L-4Pilot, any advice on go-around/balked landing once 60 degrees flap has been selected?

thanks,
Ken

[Dudley Henriques]

Dudley, always appreciate your perspective and big thanks to L-4Pilot.

L-4Pilot, any advice on go-around/balked landing once 60 degrees flap has been selected?

thanks,
Ken

I'm sure L4 will have insight on this issue.

I can tell you with some authority that as far as our flight ops in the L19 were concerned we didn't use nor did I ever recommend 60 degree landings in this airplane. Normal use of flaps was in the 30 to 40 degree range and was plenty of flap. Go-arounds using these settings posed no special issues.
My personal opinion on using 60 degrees of flap in this airplane is that doing it can easily result in a behind the curve approach. I don't recommend that either
Bottom line on your question is that if 60 degrees of flap are in your go-around equation I would make the decision to abort the approach as early as possible using normal go-around procedure getting the flaps to at least 30 degrees and preferably lower during the clean up process.
I would "suggest" that go-arounds at 60 degrees involving high angle of attack low airspeed initiation NOT be attempted in this airplane.
The key in all this is that for normal operations, 30 to 40 degrees is just fine and if a go-around is necessary from these settings it can be done safely using normal procedures.
Dudley Henriques

[Ken]

Thanks. I've also heard that 60 degrees is not necessary and brings with it some potential pitfalls as compared to a 30 degree landing. Although I may not choose to do (or recommend) them in normal operations either, I would like to be proficient in them as a demo and as a personal preference to have the ability to do anything, within reason, that an airplane was intended to do, particularly when wearing the CFI hat.

Ken

[Dudley Henriques]

I see no problem in doing that, and in fact recommend that you in fact DO this.
What I would recommend is that in doing it you place STRONG emphasis on the potential for a reverse command situation with 60 degrees down due to the very high drag index and the importance of an early decision for a go around. Other than that, normal cleanup prevails in this airplane as it does with others.
DH

[Forgotten Field]

I appreciate the commentary. But I have some more questions.

Could you clarify the recommendation against the 60 degree flap landing? I have only L-5 time of any amount, and in my flying, it is rare that I use all flaps (45 degrees) and all ailerons (20 degrees). But I have used them, and was also trained to go around with them in place, and have found times where it was and wasn't appropriate to use them. There are definite changes in performance which need to be watched; at low power settings, your descent rate really goes up in such a dirty situation and a go around with full flaps and ailerons needs to be initiated long before you are over the threshold. Maybe it's not something to advocate for the first few flights, but isn't it a pretty important tool to have in the tool box, especially for emergency situations?
My logic is that you might need them for a short field or emergency landing, and that's the wrong time to be learning how to use the airplane and how it feels in that configuration.

Second, what is the meaning of, "It's a brake airplane?"

I don't get to talk tailwheel with too many people, so I appreciate it here.

[Dudley Henriques]

I appreciate the commentary. But I have some more questions.

Could you clarify the recommendation against the 60 degree flap landing? I have only L-5 time of any amount, and in my flying, it is rare that I use all flaps (45 degrees) and all ailerons (20 degrees). But I have used them, and was also trained to go around with them in place, and have found times where it was and wasn't appropriate to use them. There are definite changes in performance which need to be watched; at low power settings, your descent rate really goes up in such a dirty situation and a go around with full flaps and ailerons needs to be initiated long before you are over the threshold. Maybe it's not something to advocate for the first few flights, but isn't it a pretty important tool to have in the tool box, especially for emergency situations?
My logic is that you might need them for a short field or emergency landing, and that's the wrong time to be learning how to use the airplane and how it feels in that configuration.

Second, what is the meaning of, "It's a brake airplane?"

I don't get to talk tailwheel with too many people, so I appreciate it here.

The L19 is a bit unusual as the flaps are concerned in that Cessna designed it for military use. I'm fairly sure it was anticipated in the design specs that the mission requirement for the aircraft might dictate that it very well would have to get into VERY small unprepared spaces in emergency situations. The flap design for 60 degrees gave the airplane this capability. Checkouts in the L19 reflected the handling of the airplane in this configuration including all that went with it, including landing the airplane behind the power curve.
It is notable that even in military use, flap settings beyond 40 degrees in the L19 was considered as beyond that necessary for NORMAL operations. Pilots flying the Bird Dog seldom used the 60 degree flap setting for landings unless the circumstances were unusual due to the resulting changes necessary to the approach profile. The drag at that setting is so high that to remain on the front side of the power curve you are literally diving on the approach. At 60 degrees you can easily find yourself low, using a ton of power, and dragging it in under reverse command. This can then easily revert into a coffin corner sink rate scenario where reducing angle of attack to avoid ground contact becomes necessary but might not be available to you altitude wise. I DO NOT recommend that pilots get themselves into this situation!
60 degree flap down approaches are NOTnecessary in this airplane for normal civilian operations. Naturally I don't recommend flying the airplane in this manner. I DO however recommend that all pilots flying this airplane know how to fly the airplane using 60 degrees of flaps.
You can fly the L19 off any reasonable space or runway and land it there with partial flaps. No need to go to 60 degrees at all in this airplane.
Now as to how you should deal with checkouts in the L19;
By all means, anyone checkout out in the Bird Dog should get thoroughly familiar with the pros and cons associated with handling the aircraft at the 60 degree flap setting. Any checkout NOT including this would be inadequate and incomplete in my opinion. Normal procedure on checkout is to include full flap approaches while at the same time cautioning about the negatives associated with these approaches.
In other words, they are there if you want them. You should know how to use them. But using them is NOT necessary for NORMAL operations in this airplane.
Dudley Henriques

Last edited by Dudley Henriques on Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

[bdk]

Second, what is the meaning of, "It's a brake airplane?"

Never flown an L-19 but in a C-195 (which shares the same tail shape), in the 3-point attitude, the vertical stabilzer gets blanked off and you lose a lot of rudder authority. This makes the use of brakes mandatory if the aircraft starts to swing on landing with the tail down.

[Ken]

Good points, everyone. Thanks.