What are the chances for Vietnam recoveries?

[Shay]

I came across this webshots photo of F-4B BuNo. 153001 on display in Hanoi

Taken by Mikehatesfans:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/339685054/339695632jHwwrA

and this one of 153001 taken just shy of 6 months earlier by Mr. Yatsuhashi, AGC

http://usn-ac-japan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/sqdn/vf-114/f-4b(153001).htm

My question is what is likely hood of recovering a combat veteran such as 153001 for restoration? What kind of obstalces would one face when dealing with the bureaucracy of Vietnam? Haven't other aircraft already been recovered and taken to Austrailia? I'm wondering what measures they took to procure the aircraft. Does anyone know if there are any groups actively persuing the rights to recover aircraft and aritfacts in Vietnam currently? It would be nice to think that one day when the Kittyhawk is finally retired from service she would serve on as a museum ship where one day maybe you could see Buno. 153001 restored and displayed. Just curious thanks.

Incase anyone is wondering here is the story of BuNo. 153001:

F-4B BuNo. 153001 of the VF-114 stationed aboard the USS Kitty Hawk crashed after ingesting debris from it's own Zuni rockets and flamed out during a flak suppression mission against anti-aircraft defenses around the Thanh Hoa (Dragon's Jaw) Bridge on May 14, 1967. Both the Pilot and the RIO ejected and were captured. 153001 bellylanded on a mud flat and was recovered by North Vietnamese and is now on display outside a museum in Hanoi. Both Lt. CDR C.E. Southwick and LT. D. Rollins endured just under 6 years of imprisonment and were later released on March 4, 1973.

Many missions were conducted against the Thanh Hoa Bridge in North Vietnam. One hundred and four pilots were shot down within a seventy five square mile vicinity of this infamous target. The communists used the bridge to push Russian and Chinese suppies southward to the front by rail, truck and foot. It stood for almost ten years against every conceivable ordinance that the Americans could muster via air power, surviving 873 sorties and the cost of 11 aircraft. For the North Vietnamese, it assumed a prominence that approached mythical status and became a symbol for the North of their detmination, fortitude and cause. It was finally destroyed by smart bombs dropped by A-4 Skyhawks, covered by F-4 Phantoms on the 13 May 1972.

Thanks again

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[setter]

Hi Shay

Many aircraft have escaped to countries like Australia often through Laos or Cambodia including one very large shipment just concluded of certain piston engined types.

The issue has always been a cloud over ownership of the aircraft once they re emerge in the US - Some of the Aus aircraft owners have been told that if their airframe was exported to the US it would be siezed by the Govt - which could have happened but doesn't seem at all certain. Certainly one Vietnam/Cambodian/Laos export was the Ex Col Pay A37 Dragonfly now in Wyoming.

I am more worried about the Ex navy aircraft and have recently been exposed to some pretty heavy handed agression over some Ex Us Navy Skyraiders and Bearcats and I can tell you the attitude is that they are theirs till the end of time - There is a need to end this rubbish attitude once and for all but I would not risk my money if the end game was to bring a Navy warbird back to the USA at present.

Regards
John P

[tom d. friedman]

i broached this topic on another thread maybe a month to a month & a 1/2 ago re: ww 2 fighters in nam, ww 2 u.s. aircraft in french markings downed in nam after ww 2 such as dauntless, corsair etc. this is a deep topic in a virtually ignored area. the communist govt doesn't help matters in the recovery effort, but the war wounds are slowly healing. time & patient attitude must prevail in successful negotiations such as war bird recoveries, mias etc.

[RickH]

Setter not arguing a point but I am looking for some clarification. How could the Bearcats and Skyraiders be considered US Navy? Weren't the F8Fs given to the French who then turned them over to the South Vietnamese. Is it simply because they were originally MAPS aircraft? The Navy turned the Skyraiders over to the USAF. Ownership transferred and they were USAF until turned over to the South. I wasn't aware that the Navy transferred any directly to the South.

[tom d. friedman]

rick, they originated from the u.s. navy. when japan surrendered in 45, france started to actively re-take their pre war colonial territories that the japanese conquered. it was all governed by the pro fascist vichy french, who cooperated / collaborated with the japanese, let alone with germany too on the other side of the globe. when the japanese realized that the vichy were cooked after normandy in europe, & france was totally allied now, they turned on the vichy french. after the pacific surrender, the french conscripted japanese prisoners, etc to fight viet minh commies etc. the u.s., ever guarding against postwar communism lend leased aircraft, vehicles, armor artillery etc, practically signed off an arsenal to the french, to stop the commies while deeming returning the hardware back to the u.s.a. as impractical & costly. a lame excuse!! the french took our weaponry from the war gladly, put their national insignia on it all, & fought till 1954 till they capitulated to the viet minh, they pulled out, we took over, & a war of attrittion ensued till 1975. hence, most aircraft up to 54 was previously u.s. navy owned, such as dauntlesses, corsairs, bearcats, & maybe some odd others, but those 3 types made up the brunt of their inventory.

[RickH]

Tom, I understand the chain of events in colonial V/N, but the Skyraiders, Hueys, F-5s, C-130s , and C-123s, et al, that were left were officially USAF . It's true that the Skyraiders were originally mostly Navy but they were handed over to the USAF thereby giving up title. The Skyraiders left were Spec Ops at NKP and then were turned over to the South by the USAF when we left. These aircraft were turned over long after the French were gone.

The aircraft given to the French were MAPS aircraft. Along with the F8Fs there were C-119s and former USAF A-26s that had been in Korea and then went through overhaul at Shin Mitsubishi, their markings were sanitized and they were flown to Viet Nam from Japan by US crews. Those guys wre brought back via C-47. The 17th Bomb Group ( 3 Squadrons) took most of their aircraft to VN and only brought 26 aircraft back to CONUS. The aircraft were flown by French and Vietnamese pilots. When the French pulled out the A-26s left were flown to Algeria where they were used in the war there.

I'm sure there were other types but these are the only ones I've personally researched.

The question I'm asking is what legal leg does the US Navy stand on when the aircraft in question were officially transferred to another branch of service ?

[tom d. friedman]

in my opinion, the u.s. navy's take on things is if the aircraft originated under u.s. navy auspices, then thats where it lies according to them. their arm of ownership spans the globe in their ownership doctrine. mine is finders keepers

[RickH]

deleted, reposted

Last edited by RickH on Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[RickH]

Oh I get it. I remember a line from a movie that might apply.

"WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION THE ALL KNOWING AND ALL POWERFUL OZ "!!!! Of course he also said " pay no attention to the man behind the curtain !"

[setter]

I believe the ownership thing originates from where the original budget vote for an aircraft was allocated and if the Navy "Paid" through a budget allocation for an aircraft then they consider it theirs till death do us part! That seems to be the take I am getting - I am sure it will change eventually but thats what I understand their position to be - especially if you don't ask first - then they get really upset

By the way I don't think many more P63/ Bearcat/ Dauntless etc WW11 vintage machines exist - I have looked a lot in the past 2 years and I think they are just history now - I would love to be proven wrong but I think not

regards
John P

[RMAllnutt]

John, I am not sure your take on Navy ownership is quite complete, as they also claim ownership over airforce aircraft that were then turned over to them... witness the B-29's (P2B's) from China Lake. So, it seems anything they once had claim to is forever in their domain. .... what cheek!

Richard

[tom d. friedman]

setter, i'd love to prove you wrong too!! not as a personal vendetta, but to find some lost birds in the same spirit as you. that region is pretty dense foliage wise, harsh terrain etc, i'd bet what's left of my hair that there are goodies covered up. my dad related to me that during ww 2 they would be on patrol in new guinea, morotai, or mindanoa, regardless of where combat took place, alot of the time they fought in an area, & would come through a week or weeks later, & you'd never know that fighting occurred their, due to the jungle 's fast regrowth process. imagine vietnam since the 50's to 1975!!!! there are a few gems out their, we just have to turn over a few more rocks. best, tom

[setter]

Hi all

Richard

I forgot about that side of it - yes they seem to claim everything that they ever had on the books . Doesn't seem to relate to responsability to remove all old ordinance and rubbish etc in SWPTO although recently they have been cleaning up the odd site there as well.

It would just be nice if they stopped being pedantic over Warbirds and settled down to helping people who are preserving what is at the end of the day Naval history?

Tom

Yes I hope someone proves me right but there was quite a chase on over the past few years and I think all the Bearcats are spoken for now (There were only 4 anyway) and as for the other stuff I never saw a Duantless, P63 or a Ki43 Oscar that were all rummored to be there and some of the guys I was dealing with were very involved and interested in the search. As I say I never say never but they must be well hidden.

As for PNG and the rest of the SWPTO I think there will always be a lot of material found and available for recovery but it is getting harder all the time as the political environment heats up and crime is rife. The ongoing battle with the scrappers doesn't help either.

Regards
John P

[Entropy]

The issue has always been a cloud over ownership of the aircraft once they re emerge in the US - Some of the Aus aircraft owners have been told that if their airframe was exported to the US it would be siezed by the Govt - which could have happened but doesn't seem at all certain. Certainly one Vietnam/Cambodian/Laos export was the Ex Col Pay A37 Dragonfly now in Wyoming.

There is one in another western US state that is very active... postive it is also an ex-SVAF via Oz..