Warbird Recovery Paperwork questions.

[Speeddemon651]

I'm curious about the process of paperwork required in recovering Warbirds and hopefully a few guys can chime in. This is really just for a better knowledge of the in's and outs and the general gray area of it.

- What is required to recover a US warbird possibly in the US ? Let's say it crashed in a body of water and pilot survived. ( I realize for wrecks where the pilot perished are considered grave sites and are a big no no to recover). For example the great lakes ?

-How does that process differ for a plane that crashed outside of the US, I realize most countries that are home to a Warbird wreck don't want anything leaving country without getting compensated for "their national treasure". For example the Swamp Ghost in Papua New Guinea.

-As I understand it, a plane (wreck, fuselage, even a data plate) on or off US soil is still property of the US government unless it was sold as surplus or explicit written permission was given to claim such aircraft. What about the parts / wrecks that have come back to the US that were never really sold by the US? Same go for the Lease loan planes we sent all over the world that were never returned ? For example multiple wrecks have come back from New Guinea without permission from the government at various times and have been restored to static display or flying condition or are sitting as a pile of rubble in a hangar corner. Can those planes be confiscated at any point in time? I imagine if you recover something and register it's serial number for the first time since WW2 a few red flags will go up.

-I remember reading somewhere about someone recovering a Warbird without permission and getting in quite the trouble for doing so and the plane was confiscated. I guess the old phrase (it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission, isn't always a good idea). I also remember reading a article written about Warbirds being recovered and Missing In Action organisations getting pissed because any forensic evidence of the pilots leaving the plane/crash site was lost when the planes were recovered.

[Dan K]

Concerning sunken military aircraft, the assortment of links here should prove enlightening:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/nhcorg12.htm

[shrike]

- What is required to recover a US warbird possibly in the US ? Let's say it crashed in a body of water and pilot survived. ( I realize for wrecks where the pilot perished are considered grave sites and are a big no no to recover). For example the great lakes ?

One big question is whether it was a US Army or Air Force aircraft vs USN. The USAF effectively abandoned all wrecks prior to a certain date (can't recall, someone will chime in), while the USN claims ownership in perpetuity.

[cooper9411]

Any Army Air Corps/Air Force aircraft accidents prior to Nov. 1961 where the aircraft was abandoned/ unlocated they hold no interest or title to such aircraft. Ownership of such land where aircraft are located are considered the owners of the aircraft. Anyone wanting to salvage the aircraft has to have express permission from the land owned. Just make sure that any/all paperwork is completely filled out. Navy still claims ownership of all "there" aircraft. Any one wanting to salvage navy aircraft has to get permission (good luck) from the navy. The odds of getting navy permission is better if its going to an educational institution, museum. The catch is the navy will still claim ownership but give it on a permanent loan. The above applies to aircraft in the U.S. not sure about laws in other countries.

[Cherrybomber13]

Good then the Navy can pay to insure it if they legally own it...

[shrike]

Good then the Navy can pay to insure it if they legally own it...

Didn't something like that happen with an airframe pulled from a reservoir? The Navy claimed it, and the city hit them with a citation for illegal dumping and 70+years of delinquency fees

[CoastieJohn]

Good then the Navy can pay to insure it if they legally own it...

Didn't something like that happen with an airframe pulled from a reservoir? The Navy claimed it, and the city hit them with a citation for illegal dumping and 70+years of delinquency fees

That's a good one!

[gary1954]

Good then the Navy can pay to insure it if they legally own it...

Didn't something like that happen with an airframe pulled from a reservoir? The Navy claimed it, and the city hit them with a citation for illegal dumping and 70+years of delinquency fees

That's a good one!

that is funny , the question is, Did the Mighty US Navy pay up or is it still in litigation

[Speeddemon651]

So where do the Air National Guard fall into these line ?

[PbyCat-Guy]

What about a privately owned airplane that's been abandoned for some time on public land, is there any statue of time limitations where anyone who wants it can get it?

[SaxMan]

ANG aircraft would be considered USAF, or AAF if before 1947.

[P51Mstg]

What about a privately owned airplane that's been abandoned for some time on public land, is there any statue of time limitations where anyone who wants it can get it?



My guess is (based on what I've learned in law school back in the olden days), it still belongs to the owner... You can give better title than the title you are given.... Hence something that is stolen will always be stolen. So if you can get the title from the owner, then you can own it.

The only other way to get title would be adverse possession. Through AP, you recover the airplane (in the open, not in secret) so the world knows its been recovered. Then basically hold it for 21 years, file a lawsuit and claim title. The suit would perfect your title so that based on the court decision the FAA could show clean title to you...

We occasionally see stories in the paper about some finding a stolen (car, guitar, etc) they lost 30 years ago. They get it back... Well if an insurance company has paid off on it, they exchange their check for the title to the item and YOUR position to recover damages. So actually it belongs to the insurance company.

Saw an episode of Pawn Stars one night, they bought something that was "stolen"... Then they found out the insurance company paid off on it so it was OK to keep it... WRONG... Now it belongs to the insurance company...

Mark H

[shrike]

What about a privately owned airplane that's been abandoned for some time on public land, is there any statue of time limitations where anyone who wants it can get it?



My guess is (based on what I've learned in law school back in the olden days), it still belongs to the owner... You can give better title than the title you are given.... Hence something that is stolen will always be stolen. So if you can get the title from the owner, then you can own it.

The only other way to get title would be adverse possession. Through AP, you recover the airplane (in the open, not in secret) so the world knows its been recovered. Then basically hold it for 21 years, file a lawsuit and claim title. The suit would perfect your title so that based on the court decision the FAA could show clean title to you...

We occasionally see stories in the paper about some finding a stolen (car, guitar, etc) they lost 30 years ago. They get it back... Well if an insurance company has paid off on it, they exchange their check for the title to the item and YOUR position to recover damages. So actually it belongs to the insurance company.

Saw an episode of Pawn Stars one night, they bought something that was "stolen"... Then they found out the insurance company paid off on it so it was OK to keep it... WRONG... Now it belongs to the insurance company...

Mark H

Probably a bit more complicated than that, or less complicated. Abandoned property statutes vary from state to state, so if a wreck is on your property and not recovered at the time of the incident you may be able to claim ownership in as little as 90 days.
Not all states issue a title for aircraft, or may not have at the time of the wreck. The FAA has been purging their registration records, so anything gone longer than three years now won't be in their listings anymore.
If the wreck was already on property that you purchased, then your title insurance company might have to get involved to pay off any claims arising from the find.

[maxum96]

Didn't something like that happen with an airframe pulled from a reservoir? The Navy claimed it, and the city hit them with a citation for illegal dumping and 70+years of delinquency fees

Perhaps you're thinking about the Helldiver pulled out of Otay Reservoir in San Diego back in 2010. If so, no the city did not hit the navy with a citation or a fine. I think they were just happy to see it get recovered and removed.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/The-Helldiver-is-Rising-101170104.html

[camshaw]

get ahold of lex, the corsair recovery guru....a great guy and a wealth of knowledge and he knows the right folks to legally make it happen and he's more than willing to help out an honest guy....