More On The Canadian Super Connie
Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:11 pm
From The Toronto Star;
Plane's trip to museum in Seattle hits turbulence
Piece of Canadian aviation history on way to U.S. museum — but not without a fight `Super Connie' was a marvel of technology, design and luxury, writes Scott Simmie
Feb. 7, 2006. 03:07 AM
SCOTT SIMMIE
STAFF REPORTER
"This is your Captain speaking.
"Welcome aboard the flagship of Trans-Canada Air Lines, the Lockheed `Super G' Constellation. If you look out your starboard window, you'll notice the wing is being removed ..."
Its flying days are long over. But as an historic airliner on Derry Rd. in Mississauga gets dismantled and prepped for shipment to the United States, there's a growing chorus of those who want to see it remain in this country.
The former Trans-Canada Air Lines (TCA) luxury plane has been sold to Seattle's Museum of Flight, which has one of the best collections of notable airliners in the world. It paid an undisclosed amount for the aircraft, a former bar/restaurant called "Super Connie" that's been sitting abandoned for years.
Now the Air Canada Pionairs — an organization of more than 12,000 retired Air Canada employees — has started an online petition to try to keep it here (http://www.canadiansuperconnie.org). The group has also written the federal Canadian Heritage department, urging it to deny an export permit for the plane.
"We believe the aviation history of Canada would be significantly diminished if an export permit was issued allowing this rare aircraft to be moved to Seattle," says a letter sent to the department's Moveable Cultural Property office. "(We) support efforts by the Toronto Aerospace Museum to keep this aircraft in Canada ... for the benefit of all Canadians."
In its day, the Super Constellation was a magnificent bird. With its efficiency and fuel capacity, it could whisk passengers non-stop from Toronto and Montreal to Europe in posh and pampered style — and in then-record time. Tens of thousands of immigrants came to Canada on these aircraft. Advertisements that appeared half a century ago in the Toronto Daily Star described it as the "World's Finest Airliner!"
"You can't fly finer! You can't fly faster to Europe! — Than on one of the big SUPER Constellations just put in service by Trans-Canada Air Lines," reads a 1954 TCA/Lockheed advertisement. "Take a look at one of these sleek beauties — the roomiest, the most comfortable modern airliner in service anywhere ..."
Aviation enthusiasts say it's Canada's only surviving passenger craft from that era. Ken Swartz says he's checked out the fate of every trans-oceanic propeller-driven airliner flown by Canadian operators of the day.
"All the original passenger-carrying piston-engine (aircraft) that Canadian airlines flew across the Atlantic and the Pacific between 1947 and the mid-1960s have disappeared from Canada, except Super Constellation CF-TGE, Fleet No. 405," says Swartz, vice-chairman of the Toronto Aerospace Museum. "It really is the last of its kind (in the country)."
But keeping "Super Connie" on Canadian soil may be easier said than done.
From the perspective of the Seattle Museum of Flight, this is a done deal. An undisclosed amount of cash has already been paid, and Air Canada will soon paint the craft in its original TCA colours before it heads south. Air Canada points out that it has donated several aircraft to Canadian museums, but that this one isn't its to donate.
"It's a private transaction," says spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick.
But, according to some, Canada didn't get a clear shot at keeping the airliner.
"The Toronto Aerospace Museum has been trying to acquire this aircraft for several years," says manager/curator Paul Cabot. "We've been rebuffed at every turn."
The person who's been overseeing the sale and dismantling is Catherine Scott, a colourful character with language to match. Last week, she initially told the Star she was the owner. During a later conversation, she said, "I don't own the darn thing." She also says that "Canadian museums had many years to buy this aircraft, and they did not."
The Toronto Aerospace Museum says it tried dealing with Scott repeatedly, but that she seemed adamant the Super Connie head south. The museum says it was also in occasional talks with the Greater Toronto Airport Authority over the years — operating under the belief the GTAA was taking ownership of the craft because no one had been paying rent on the GTAA land where it's been sitting empty since 2002.
"So we were quite certain it would be made available to Canadian museums," says Cabot. Certain enough that Cabot lobbied for, and received, federal permission to park the plane outside the museum's home in Downsview Park. The GTAA, meanwhile, expressed relief the aircraft is finally leaving its property and heading to Seattle.
But where it will ultimately wind up may still be in the air. Canadian Heritage has the power to delay the export of the craft, offering a grace period to see if Canadian museums can match the U.S. bid.
"It would be nice to have something from the prop age and all the glamour associated with that," says Howard Malone, president of the Canadian Aviation Historical Society, Toronto Chapter. "The Constellation marked a pretty important milestone in terms of the destinations it could reach."
As for the destination this Connie will reach, the flight plan still calls for Seattle. But there may well be some turbulence along the way.
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Ok you boy's put your hands up & step away from the Connie!
Robbie
Plane's trip to museum in Seattle hits turbulence
Piece of Canadian aviation history on way to U.S. museum — but not without a fight `Super Connie' was a marvel of technology, design and luxury, writes Scott Simmie
Feb. 7, 2006. 03:07 AM
SCOTT SIMMIE
STAFF REPORTER
"This is your Captain speaking.
"Welcome aboard the flagship of Trans-Canada Air Lines, the Lockheed `Super G' Constellation. If you look out your starboard window, you'll notice the wing is being removed ..."
Its flying days are long over. But as an historic airliner on Derry Rd. in Mississauga gets dismantled and prepped for shipment to the United States, there's a growing chorus of those who want to see it remain in this country.
The former Trans-Canada Air Lines (TCA) luxury plane has been sold to Seattle's Museum of Flight, which has one of the best collections of notable airliners in the world. It paid an undisclosed amount for the aircraft, a former bar/restaurant called "Super Connie" that's been sitting abandoned for years.
Now the Air Canada Pionairs — an organization of more than 12,000 retired Air Canada employees — has started an online petition to try to keep it here (http://www.canadiansuperconnie.org). The group has also written the federal Canadian Heritage department, urging it to deny an export permit for the plane.
"We believe the aviation history of Canada would be significantly diminished if an export permit was issued allowing this rare aircraft to be moved to Seattle," says a letter sent to the department's Moveable Cultural Property office. "(We) support efforts by the Toronto Aerospace Museum to keep this aircraft in Canada ... for the benefit of all Canadians."
In its day, the Super Constellation was a magnificent bird. With its efficiency and fuel capacity, it could whisk passengers non-stop from Toronto and Montreal to Europe in posh and pampered style — and in then-record time. Tens of thousands of immigrants came to Canada on these aircraft. Advertisements that appeared half a century ago in the Toronto Daily Star described it as the "World's Finest Airliner!"
"You can't fly finer! You can't fly faster to Europe! — Than on one of the big SUPER Constellations just put in service by Trans-Canada Air Lines," reads a 1954 TCA/Lockheed advertisement. "Take a look at one of these sleek beauties — the roomiest, the most comfortable modern airliner in service anywhere ..."
Aviation enthusiasts say it's Canada's only surviving passenger craft from that era. Ken Swartz says he's checked out the fate of every trans-oceanic propeller-driven airliner flown by Canadian operators of the day.
"All the original passenger-carrying piston-engine (aircraft) that Canadian airlines flew across the Atlantic and the Pacific between 1947 and the mid-1960s have disappeared from Canada, except Super Constellation CF-TGE, Fleet No. 405," says Swartz, vice-chairman of the Toronto Aerospace Museum. "It really is the last of its kind (in the country)."
But keeping "Super Connie" on Canadian soil may be easier said than done.
From the perspective of the Seattle Museum of Flight, this is a done deal. An undisclosed amount of cash has already been paid, and Air Canada will soon paint the craft in its original TCA colours before it heads south. Air Canada points out that it has donated several aircraft to Canadian museums, but that this one isn't its to donate.
"It's a private transaction," says spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick.
But, according to some, Canada didn't get a clear shot at keeping the airliner.
"The Toronto Aerospace Museum has been trying to acquire this aircraft for several years," says manager/curator Paul Cabot. "We've been rebuffed at every turn."
The person who's been overseeing the sale and dismantling is Catherine Scott, a colourful character with language to match. Last week, she initially told the Star she was the owner. During a later conversation, she said, "I don't own the darn thing." She also says that "Canadian museums had many years to buy this aircraft, and they did not."
The Toronto Aerospace Museum says it tried dealing with Scott repeatedly, but that she seemed adamant the Super Connie head south. The museum says it was also in occasional talks with the Greater Toronto Airport Authority over the years — operating under the belief the GTAA was taking ownership of the craft because no one had been paying rent on the GTAA land where it's been sitting empty since 2002.
"So we were quite certain it would be made available to Canadian museums," says Cabot. Certain enough that Cabot lobbied for, and received, federal permission to park the plane outside the museum's home in Downsview Park. The GTAA, meanwhile, expressed relief the aircraft is finally leaving its property and heading to Seattle.
But where it will ultimately wind up may still be in the air. Canadian Heritage has the power to delay the export of the craft, offering a grace period to see if Canadian museums can match the U.S. bid.
"It would be nice to have something from the prop age and all the glamour associated with that," says Howard Malone, president of the Canadian Aviation Historical Society, Toronto Chapter. "The Constellation marked a pretty important milestone in terms of the destinations it could reach."
As for the destination this Connie will reach, the flight plan still calls for Seattle. But there may well be some turbulence along the way.
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Ok you boy's put your hands up & step away from the Connie!
Robbie
Re: More On The Canadian Super Connie
Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:09 pm
I cannot begin to express how wrong I think this is. An honest buyer and an honest seller have entered into an agreement. Now the state wants to interfere with a binding contract and offer the aircraft to someone else at their whim. Maybe the seller didn't want the noted Canadian museum to have the aircraft? Maybe the Canadiam museum didn't want to make a reasonable offer because they didn't realize there was any competition? This essentially puts the aircraft up for auction after the fact, only the "state approved buyer" already knows the auction results. This is completely unfair!Robbie Stuart wrote:"Canadian Heritage has the power to delay the export of the craft, offering a grace period to see if Canadian museums can match the U.S. bid."
Re: More On The Canadian Super Connie
Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:29 pm
bdk wrote:I cannot begin to express how wrong I think this is. An honest buyer and an honest seller have entered into an agreement. Now the state wants to interfere with a binding contract and offer the aircraft to someone else at their whim. Maybe the seller didn't want the noted Canadian museum to have the aircraft? Maybe the Canadiam museum didn't want to make a reasonable offer because they didn't realize there was any competition? This essentially puts the aircraft up for auction after the fact, only the "state approved buyer" already knows the auction results. This is completely unfair!Robbie Stuart wrote:"Canadian Heritage has the power to delay the export of the craft, offering a grace period to see if Canadian museums can match the U.S. bid."
I agree. The Museum of Flight would be a good home as well.
Mike
Not to start an argument but I have to agree with Mike
Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:24 pm
The Connie has sat for many years on display and now finally she has a chance to go to a good home that can hopefully place it under cover. I feel it is wrong to try and put a hault to this effort and try and have her remain in canada. Does TAM have the means of restoring it and placing it under cover? I would think that they are hard pressed with the Lancaster project right now. If she was to stay with a Canadian museum then I would put her with the Museum in Ottawa.
I have to laugh over this Canadian heritage guise which comes into play everytime a major aircraft is to be exported out of the country. Look at the uproar about the B24 out East and also the carryon over that B17 in the Lake.
If people are that concerned over their aviation heritage than have a look in our own back country and see the wrecks that are being left to the elements. Look at the Lincoln in Watson Lake for example. Granted she is not a Canadian built aircraft but did stirling service with the WEE flight under difficult conditions. After an accident she was left in pieces in and around her crash site.
I wonder if someone from the UK was to come and salvage her and take her home would there be such and outcry?
Like BDK states.
I have to laugh over this Canadian heritage guise which comes into play everytime a major aircraft is to be exported out of the country. Look at the uproar about the B24 out East and also the carryon over that B17 in the Lake.
If people are that concerned over their aviation heritage than have a look in our own back country and see the wrecks that are being left to the elements. Look at the Lincoln in Watson Lake for example. Granted she is not a Canadian built aircraft but did stirling service with the WEE flight under difficult conditions. After an accident she was left in pieces in and around her crash site.
I wonder if someone from the UK was to come and salvage her and take her home would there be such and outcry?
Like BDK states.
Totally wrong to interfere...An honest buyer and an honest seller have entered into an agreement. Now the state wants to interfere with a binding contract and offer the aircraft to someone else at their whim.
Last edited by peter on Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:06 pm
Ah, Canada....the epitome of a spoiled child. The Connie was there for several years, and when it is going to be put in a proper museum, under great care, they start throwing a temper tantrum. Just like a child who doesn't play with a toy, but when someone else shows interest, throws themselves down on the ground in a tantrum because it is THEIR toy, even though they never bothered to take care of it.
As for Canada "wanting something from the propeler age" (not sure of exact quote), well how many prop airliners did they scrap, or allow to be scrapped, before they decided that they needed one? So is Canada now going to let it sit, dismantled, while they try to fight to keep it? Great show of caring for a icon from a bygone era.
As for Canada "wanting something from the propeler age" (not sure of exact quote), well how many prop airliners did they scrap, or allow to be scrapped, before they decided that they needed one? So is Canada now going to let it sit, dismantled, while they try to fight to keep it? Great show of caring for a icon from a bygone era.
Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:45 am
Xrayist wrote:Ah, Canada....the epitome of a spoiled child.
Oh I think that is uncalled for. You shouldn't paint all Canadians with the same brush. Besides, you know the saying about glass houses don't you?
As a Canuck I had a chance to write a letter to protest the move of the airframe. I will not do so. The TAM had their chance and struck out, now the MoF is stepping up to bat.
Mike
Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:50 am
Get the aircraft under a roof!
And Mike, we'll settle this name calling via our respective ice hockey teams at Turino.
And Mike, we'll settle this name calling via our respective ice hockey teams at Turino.
Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:38 pm
Here is a letter to the editor of the Toronto Star...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten ... 8350116895
This guy nailed it right on except for the last paragraph. The museum in Ottawa no longer has it's artifacts outside. They are all now under a roof including the Vickers and the DC-9 mentioned. It is also not surprising the CAvM did not have the funding. They are really just an extention of the federal government, and can't do any extra projects without and injection of cash.
Mike
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten ... 8350116895
This guy nailed it right on except for the last paragraph. The museum in Ottawa no longer has it's artifacts outside. They are all now under a roof including the Vickers and the DC-9 mentioned. It is also not surprising the CAvM did not have the funding. They are really just an extention of the federal government, and can't do any extra projects without and injection of cash.
Mike
Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:55 pm
And the Connie was not built in Long Beach, that's where Douglas was located (also in Santa Monica). Lockheed was in Burbank.mrhenniger wrote:This guy nailed it right on except for the last paragraph. The museum in Ottawa no longer has it's artifacts outside.
Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:26 pm
Isn't the US hockey team all from Canada anyway? or is that just the NHL?
Seems the public and the a/c are the losers on this deal.
Seems the public and the a/c are the losers on this deal.
Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:49 pm
TimApNy wrote:Isn't the US hockey team all from Canada anyway? or is that just the NHL?
NHL. Can't do that in the Olympics.
My brother-in-law took be to a Leafs game in North Carolina once and we wore Toronto jerseys (I was a little nervous). Toronto lost which was no surprise (I am a Sens fan). On our way out after the game we heard a loud "Canada Sucks!!!". Figuring that was meant for us we just kept going. Of couse we had a good laugh at it later. Over half of the Hurricanes were Canadian, and on top of that there were a few Europeans. Hmmm...
TimApNy wrote:Seems the public and the a/c are the losers on this deal.
As far as I am concerned there are no losers as long as it goes to Seattle, because it will be well taken care of there (having visited that museum). If it were to go to the TAM it would likely sit outside for a while since they really don't have the space for it anyway.
Mike
Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:40 pm
I would have loved to have seen it stay in Canada given such a strong Canadian connection with this particular air frame. However, it doesn't seem that there was any way to properly look after the air frame in doors for a long time. It's suffered outside for long enough. I also feel that the transaction with the Museum of Flight is a done deal, and should not be interfered with. If the local museum had wanted it that badly, then they should have offered an appropriate price. Besides, the Museum of Flight is a perfect destination for this air frame... they are sure to look after it well.
On another note, that comment about Canada being a spoilt child was completely uncalled for. Canada is a great nation with a proud and noble heritage. Slinging silly statements like that reveals a little too much of the child in the one making it.
Richard
On another note, that comment about Canada being a spoilt child was completely uncalled for. Canada is a great nation with a proud and noble heritage. Slinging silly statements like that reveals a little too much of the child in the one making it.
Richard
Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:57 pm
Rob, if I make it to Geneseo, you'll have your beer.
It may be flat from the time it spent on the shelf, but hey, you'll have it!
It may be flat from the time it spent on the shelf, but hey, you'll have it!
Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:19 pm
Hi all--
I concur with Mike...the basic issue with the Connie (as with any light-alloy structure) is that for its longterm survival it must be kept indoors, and there is no immediate likelihood of TAM being able to facilitate that, while Seattle can and will. In a more perfect world CF-RNR/TGE would remain in Canada under cover; in the world we're actually living in, Seattle seems to be the best home for the Connie...
Thanks, Richard, for the note of support. Three Canucks have now weighed-in here with the opinion that the Connie's best interests mean a move to Seattle, so obviously views are less rigid North of 49 than it might seem!
S.
I concur with Mike...the basic issue with the Connie (as with any light-alloy structure) is that for its longterm survival it must be kept indoors, and there is no immediate likelihood of TAM being able to facilitate that, while Seattle can and will. In a more perfect world CF-RNR/TGE would remain in Canada under cover; in the world we're actually living in, Seattle seems to be the best home for the Connie...
Thanks, Richard, for the note of support. Three Canucks have now weighed-in here with the opinion that the Connie's best interests mean a move to Seattle, so obviously views are less rigid North of 49 than it might seem!
S.
Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:23 pm
I hate to be a bit of a devils advocate here, but I have been reading with certain concern about this transaction and there is a general feeling that the Connie will be under immediate cover once there and put back together... are we sure this is the case? I mean, the B-29 and the Concorde are still outside from what I remember... I think the B-47 too. There are no display buildings currently large enough to put these planes in. There was talk of a commercial aviation hangar/display building being built on the other side of Marginal Way, but I am not sure what the timetable of this is, seeing as how they have just recently spent so much on the Personal Courage Annex.
I do think the MOF has one of the best displays anywhere and feel it is more of a good home than anything, but I am concerned as to what the immediate goals will be for the aircraft. If it will be reassembled and left outside, I dare say the corrosion peril is more so in wet Seattle by the Puget Sound than in Toronto.
Does anyone know more about the future of it, when and if it makes it to Seattle?
Ryan
I do think the MOF has one of the best displays anywhere and feel it is more of a good home than anything, but I am concerned as to what the immediate goals will be for the aircraft. If it will be reassembled and left outside, I dare say the corrosion peril is more so in wet Seattle by the Puget Sound than in Toronto.
Does anyone know more about the future of it, when and if it makes it to Seattle?
Ryan