Thoughts/Musings on Colling's Foundation's New B-17 Markings

[Dennis7423]

All-

Just wanted to share some thoughts I've had, and hopefully start some fun discussion! Certainly not meant to spurn anything Collings Foundation has planned, as they can paint their plane any way they want to as we often say around here.

The story as I understand it is that once Collings Foundation get's the Evergreen Flight Museum's B-17 up and running, they are going to bring '909' in for some significant maintenance. Once that is completed, the ex-Evergreen bird will go in for maintenance that I hear will involve a new pain scheme that will compliment 909. The rumors I have heard are that the Evergreen bird will be painted to represent 'Outhouse Mouse", which sometimes flew with 909 and was also in an olive drab/neutral grey scheme. Outhouse Mouse had unstaggered waist guns and the early stinger style tail gun, both of which the Evergreen bird does not have.

The thoughts I was having revolve around other options to pain the ex-Evergreen bird to take advantage of that beautiful natural metal already present on that B-17. I have recently been doing some research on B-17's that often flew in formation with '909', and have mused about a few birds that could be other marking options. Here's where I started:

I first started with this formation picture, taken during a training exercise during late 1944:



The lead B-17 in this formation in camo is '909'. She has unstaggered waists and stinger style tail gun. The restored '909' has staggered waists, so it's not 100% accurate to the wartime bird.

Off it's left wing is "Priority Gal", coded OR-C, which is in natural metal with the standard stinger tail gun and unstaggered waists.

Off the right wing is "Sweet 17, Spirit of St. Louis", coded OR-S, which has a Cheyenne tail turret and un-staggered waists.

The next aircraft behind, which is flying low left, is "Shirley Jean", coded OR-K, which has staggered waists and the standard stinger tail gun.

The next aircraft, flying low right, is "Cheri", coded OR-W, has staggered waists and a Cheyenne tail turret.

The last aircraft, which is in camo, is "Betty Lou's Buggy", coded OR-D, which has unstaggered waists and standard stinger tail gun.

There is one bird within this formation that would only involve a paint job for the Evergreen bird, and it's an interesting one. Cheri had its outer left wing replaced at some point, and it was replaced with an outer wing from a B-17F in camo and neutral grey. Additionally, the wing was left with the early style round insignia, and was not updated to the star with bars. She also had a bomb bay door replaced with a neutral grey one. Here are a few photos of her from wartime:







Another nice option is "Sweet 17, Spirit of St. Louis", which has a Cheyenne style tail gun but has unstaggered waist guns. I haven't found many wartime photos of this bird, but have built a scale model of her using custom made decals:







So, there you have it folks! Just some thoughts I have had lately while doing my research. All in all, I am overjoyed to have another B-17 back in the air in the near future, and in the not too distant future, Collings Foundation having two B-17's flying side by side, and presumably both wearing 91st BG markings. Always admire folks who have the passion to keep these old birds flying. I've been really impressed during my research into the aircraft of the 91st, and just how many of their birds were patched together with pieces of other aircraft (see Little Miss Mischief). I know many squadrons had to incorporate this practice, but the 91st seems to have perfected it to get as many aircraft in the air as possible. Being in the ETO since the early beginnings of the USAAF bombing campaign will teach you a thing or two about maintaining aircraft it would seem.

- Dennis S.
Westminster, CO USA

*All photos are either my own photos or were gathered from the internet for personal use. They are not intended for any profit, and were not borrowed from any sources that required purchase to acquire.*

[Richard W.]

A natural metal B-17 sure looks sweet with the red unit markings. I hope Colling's decides to have one of each.

[Ken]

I appreciate the research and details you brought forward - always enjoy learning more about the Mighty Eighth. Who knows if this sort of info will affect decisions at Collings? Either way - good stuff - thanks for sharing.

Ken

[DH82EH]

If the decision is ever made to go from natural aluminum to O.D., the opportunity to have a composite machine represented would be ripe indeed.
My vote is for "Little Miss Mischief". What an amazing story to tell, even for a season or two.

Andy

[JohnB]

Wasn't the (late) Liberty Belle once with a rebuild group (in Florida,IIRC) that was going to paint her as "Outhouse Mouse"?

Yesterday, I drove a neighbor to a nearby tire store, behind the counter that had a warbird calendar of some sort, the photo for this month was an excellent color shot of a natural metal "Fuddy Duddy". Nice looking ship.

Considering most "G"s were natural metal, that has my vote, not that it means much.

[menards]

why did they go from camp to unpainted anyways? was it just "easier"? Or "Faster"(from a production standpoint)? or "cheaper"? or "didn't really matter"? Or all of the above?

[Pogmusic]

It saved weight, cost, and time. By the time the BM aircraft started to arrive, the need for camo was reduced.

[JohnB]

The paint was deleted from new-build B-17s beginning in January, 1944.
The change was made during the G-35-BO, G-20-VE and G-35-DL production blocks.

So if one were to be strict about it, the ac shouldn't have it.
The ac, 44-83785, was exactly the 100th from the last B-17 built by Douglas.

Last edited by JohnB on Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[p51]

As a life member of the 91st BG association, naturally I would love to see another 91st bird re-created by the Collings group.
Like all fans, I have a specific bird that I'd paint a B-17 for is I ever owned one. The co-pilot of this ship was a friend of mine, who passed away in 1999. The ship (OR-S, with the 323rd SQ) ditched in the North Sea during the 'Big Week':

That said, I've heard a lot of fans are clamoring for anything other than yet another 8th AF paint job...

Wasn't the (late) Liberty Belle once with a rebuild group (in Florida,IIRC) that was going to paint her as "Outhouse Mouse"?

Yep, I still have a pin from that effort, with the nose art and "Fortress Flight" around it. That 17 was under rebuild at the time which tells you how long ago that was.

[Ken]

If the decision is ever made to go from natural aluminum to O.D., the opportunity to have a composite machine represented would be ripe indeed.
My vote is for "Little Miss Mischief". What an amazing story to tell, even for a season or two.

Andy

Great idea! I suppose the paint aids in corrosion prevention. The benefits would be:
1) Some painted areas, assuming the NMF was not painted silver
2) There are a number of photos & models that document her actual appearance

see link: http://fineartofdecalsimages.s3.amazona ... Flight.jpg

3) Great (true) story
4) 91st BG G-model
5) The nose art is classic WWII without being too racy or controversial in today's society

Where do I send my check?

Ken

[DH82EH]

Ooh. Ken, keep sellin' it! You're doin' great!

I think Jim Harley is a big fan of this ship as well.

http://www.303rdbg.com/news/2010-09-30.html

Here's a link to a bit of her story

[JimH]

I am a big fan of LMM...I think it is one of the most spectacular B-17's to serve in combat. That said...the pandora's box of questions the crew on the road would have to endure would lead to quick burn out. Case in point...if you look at the wartime Witchcraft a couple of the cowlings were natural metal...we talked about replicating this but it would be one more thing to explain, on top of "where are you based?" are you from Texas?", howd you get them here?", "did these fly in?"...the list goes on.

Jim

[wendovertom]

I am a big fan of LMM...I think it is one of the most spectacular B-17's to serve in combat. That said...the pandora's box of questions the crew on the road would have to endure would lead to quick burn out. Case in point...if you look at the wartime Witchcraft a couple of the cowlings were natural metal...we talked about replicating this but it would be one more thing to explain, on top of "where are you based?" are you from Texas?", howd you get them here?", "did these fly in?"...the list goes on.

Jim

I know of what you speak



Tom P.

[DH82EH]

"What ever happened to that Diamond Lil' you guys had?"

You mean like that right?

I guess I get it.

I'll have to get my own darn "Little Miss Mischief" .......

Andy

[DH82EH]

No!

I've got a new idea.

If Collings paints this Fort to be Little Miss Mischief, I will quit my job and go wherever the plane goes, to explain to the never ending line up, of folks asking the same questions over and over.

Deal?

Andy

P.S. can I bring my Tiger Moth? It will only take me three days to catch up to each stop.