f-15A reporter

[_evan]

Is there anymore info on the crashed F-15 in Greenland??? It would seem to me that such a rare aircraft like that would be the efforts of a recovery. I looked around at the GPS coordinates you can find online for it. doesn't seem to be anything obvious in the area.

Thanks,
Evan

[PinecastleAAF]

Have you tried to get a copy of the accident report? That should give you an idea if it was a high impact crash or not. I have a special spot in my heart for the Reporter it would be cool to see one no matter how much was left.

[Joe Scheil]

"It would seem to me that such a rare aircraft like that would be the efforts of a recovery."

Not really...a rare aircraft such as this is a curiosity, not a "one off" or a must have aircraft. A combat history P-61 A or B would be a hunt-able aircraft, but that is an unobtanium airplane right now.

On another follow up subject, while there is a static in China, that plane itself would be a huge undertaking as far as restoration is concerned. Would anyone want to spend a couple years negotiating, a few million dollars buying and shipping, and then watching the plane be a part of a 15 year restoration? Even being a combat "veteran" P-61...Is it worth that?

Hard to say....but a Reporter...no.

[OD/NG]

"It would seem to me that such a rare aircraft like that would be the efforts of a recovery."

Not really...a rare aircraft such as this is a curiosity, not a "one off" or a must have aircraft. A combat history P-61 A or B would be a hunt-able aircraft, but that is an unobtanium airplane right now.

On another follow up subject, while there is a static in China, that plane itself would be a huge undertaking as far as restoration is concerned. Would anyone want to spend a couple years negotiating, a few million dollars buying and shipping, and then watching the plane be a part of a 15 year restoration? Even being a combat "veteran" P-61...Is it worth that?

Hard to say....but a Reporter...no.

I disagree that it is not worth obtaining. If you use that rationale, then the Greenland expedition to recover the P-38 was not worth doing. Yet, somebody spent millions recovering and restoring a P-38 which probably has very little original metal left in it, no combat history and was not particularly rare. Added to this, when "Glacier Girl" was recovered in 1992, P-38's weren't worth nearly the same amount of money that they are now.

A Reporter is definitely worth obtaining. The P-61 series (including Reporter) is an elusive warbird, probably one of the most desirable, with possibly one exception - the TBD Devastator.

Whether a "warbird" is worth recovering, restoring, etc. is completely dependent upon the person putting up the money. Is Paul Allen a "fool" for sinking reportedly 4 Million into a non-combat, ex-firebomber B-25 which had virtually no real significant history? Yet, he did it. One could have bought 6 to 8 flying B-25's for the price he put into that aircraft.

The same can be said regarding the Reporter. Yes, it is a very rare and elusive aircraft. There are a handful of multi-millionaires in the world who wouldn't bat an eye to sink 6 or 8 Million into the recovery and restoration to flying condition of a Reporter. By doing so, said multi-millionaire could have exclusive rights to saying they own the only flying P-61 in the world (until MAAM's flys).

My 2 cents.

[Malo83]

Not positive but I believe back in the late 60's an F15A tanker crashed east of Porterville, Ca. fighting a wild fire in the Sierras???

[Rick65]

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contribut ... s/7718.htm

[Scott Rose]

Not positive but I believe back in the late 60's an F15A tanker crashed east of Porterville, Ca. fighting a wild fire in the Sierras???

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p61regis ... 59300.html

[airnutz]

Some info here Scott which may help fill in some of the blanks in your Registry on this bird. The life and demise of 45-59300....
http://napoleon130.tripod.com/p61blackwidow/id33.html

[bdk]

Some info here Scott which may help fill in some of the blanks in your Registry on this bird. The life and demise of 45-59300....
http://napoleon130.tripod.com/p61blackwidow/id33.html

The following caption is incorrect, a P-61 is depicted:

"45-59300 Testing Ram Jets in 1947"

[airnutz]

He seems like a nice chap, let him know. It's an active site, he'll probably fix that pretty quickly.

[sandiego89]

Hard to say....but a Reporter...no.

I disagree that it is not worth obtaining. If you use that rationale, then the Greenland expedition to recover the P-38 was not worth doing. Yet, somebody spent millions recovering and restoring a P-38 which probably has very little original metal left in it, no combat history and was not particularly rare. Added to this, when "Glacier Girl" was recovered in 1992, P-38's weren't worth nearly the same amount of money that they are now.

A Reporter is definitely worth obtaining. The P-61 series (including Reporter) is an elusive warbird, probably one of the most desirable, with possibly one exception - the TBD Devastator.

Whether a "warbird" is worth recovering, restoring, etc. is completely dependent upon the person putting up the money. Is Paul Allen a "fool" for sinking reportedly 4 Million into a non-combat, ex-firebomber B-25 which had virtually no real significant history? Yet, he did it. One could have bought 6 to 8 flying B-25's for the price he put into that aircraft.

The same can be said regarding the Reporter. Yes, it is a very rare and elusive aircraft. There are a handful of multi-millionaires in the world who wouldn't bat an eye to sink 6 or 8 Million into the recovery and restoration to flying condition of a Reporter. By doing so, said multi-millionaire could have exclusive rights to saying they own the only flying P-61 in the world (until MAAM's flys).

My 2 cents.

While I agree with you that any recovery and restoration is worth what someone is willing to spend on it, I agree with Joe that a Reporter likely lacks the provenance that would make someone go to Greenland and spend millions on a pile of bits. Glacier Girl, B-25s and B-29's are bad comparisons. All of those have huge provenance and appeal- I just don't see it happening for a Reporter either. Yes less could have been spent on other P-38 restorations, but no P-38 has the story to tell that Glacier Girl does. I do think a true Black Widow would have strong appeal to both the enthusiasts and casual warbird fan. What's not to like?- big, black, rare and one of the top five (one?) best ever names. The Reporter not so much.

Don't get me wrong, I too have a soft spot for one offs and would like to see a Reporter survivor flying or not, but I don't think a Reporter has nearly the pull of a true Black Widow, nor would many consider it a true P-61.

[Warbird Kid]

Hypothetically speaking, I would wager that IF this long lost Reporter was found, AND it was recovered, AND a restoration to flight was commenced, I would bet the owner would restore it as a P-61.

[airnutz]

Would I prefer, the 2nd restored flying P-61 in the world...possibly the 2nd best restored P-61? Or would I prefer the world's only flying F-15 Reporter hot rod?..things that make you go, "Hmmmm".

[Joe Scheil]

The F-15A was a cool tanker, as a Tanker enthusiast I always dug the plane. She was tanked after the P-61, starting in 1964/65 by Cal NAt in Grass Valley, and after a return from Mexico as a photomapper. All her Turbo-supercharging was removed I believe and she was called "The Pregnant Widow". Tanker E35 crashed on an aborted (no flaps) takeoff on a hot load during 1968 at Hollister, CA and was past of an AAHS article in the (1980's)? that was pretty complete, even showing pictures of what remained after the post crackup fire. The problem with the planes is a lot of the Reporter was exotic, materials and otherwise, and a repair was out of the question. She was scrapped and her spares stored. They went to the MAAM for the P-61 project. Incidentally Ralph M Ponte who was flying that day did a lot of warbird stuff and owned an F7F among other things. Photo from a prior WIX thread courtesy of AviationArk... ANd sharp eyed folks may note there were at least three different propeller combinations tried on this plane as a tanker. The ones in the photo are the last ones and were on during the crash. Its possible that the plane was not the hot performer in the low and slow at high density altitudes environment of California firefighting, and these indicate attempts at making the airplane a safer platform that never panned out. These may have been cut down DC-7 blades perhaps and propeller choice may have been a contributing factor to the crash...



The P-61B crashing on a fire near Porterville was a historic P-61B-1 42-34919 and was flown by an ex 421st NFS pilot named Bob Savaria who probably advocated and bought the plane for the Boise company Ranchers Inc. She was a longtime civilian airplane who did not survive being tanked long, crashing Aug 23, 1963 on her fifth firefighting call out. It seems the P-61 did not like hot or high conditions....





Wether a P-61 or a TBD or an F-15A is worth getting is really just an armchair arguement amongst those who can't do much about any of it. There are no TBD's that can be recovered, as the USN has prevented that from happening, and thus sacrificed the remaining ones on the planet to corrosive oblivion. The F-15A is as far as I know not existing anywhere, and a crashed one would be relatively worthless, as using the airframe bits as the basis for a P-61B reconstruction would always be known as such. However, if a complete one was quietly recovered...that would help. AFAIK, there are no crashed F-15 Reporters noted worldwide. They were all scrapped.

As for cost, I remember looking at the P-61 in China as an armchair estimation project with a friend and we tried to figure out the costs and timeframe. First, the numbers on some of what is happening today are very different than the year 2000 number quoted before. "6 to 8 Million" is way off. Those are Corsair numbers today, and Corsairs could be more than that if they are complete reconstructions, which are what remains in the marketplace. A P-38 can easily be a $10-$12M dollar restoration. Recovery is extra. A P-61 might cost close to (In the China case) $12-$18 M and take 15++ years. I am nearly 50 years old, and most collectors are older. Would we want to spend that much to have a flyable P-61 in 2032 or 2035? Will there be 100LL avgas or legislation outlawing high performance ex military aircraft? User fees on airspace? Will there be airshows or LHFE rides? Will 100LL be $26.88 a gallon and require carbon offset credits to use? This should be a consideration. And 15 years would be twice as fast as the one under restoration now...

Further is that where your organization want to go? If you choose a P-61 (China) project, it takes all the resources a shop and or several shops for 15 years if its a full court press on the project. AND they have to sell it to you! They have gotten offers and refused them all. And while this is happening really significant planes with lots of available parts get scrapped every day. Not as "special" but historic and significant are the P2V-7/OP-2E projects going for a song right now. Why not save a Neptune, buy a ton of parts and protect the plane for a generation or two? Further, are their more valuable planes that are simpler and more significant? Yes, and that's the rub. Its cool to think about having the only. But it would sacrifice other projects and truthfully this is a distraction from reality. It simply isn't really a valid argument right now. There are no available projects in the known world. And that is that.

AS for Paul Allen and Rod Lewis (and other Billionaires) and the planes they collect and spend on, they are proving to be very very smart in their choices for preservation and the monies they invest. They have aircraft that are special and once completed are unduplicatable at that price. Their planes are as correct as can be done, and are completely restored. The Flying Heritage B-25 is a completely restored and significant WWII aircraft. There are cheaper ones. But they are repaints or partial restorations that aren't really "comps" in comparison with a no questions no stories B-25.. The days of simple millionaires going after planes in the hills may be behind us...

Last edited by Joe Scheil on Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

[sandiego89]

Good armchair discussion of hypotheticals and thanks for posting those pictures of the F-15 Joe, I had never seen those and had no idea different props were trialed.

I tend to agree that if substantial/usable F-15 bits were found, it would be very tempting to make a P-61 out of them, and think most would follow that route. Cutting up a perfectly good F-15 (if one existed) to make a P-61 would be a different story, many would prefer a true survivor to be left as is.

I knew a guy who made a Ford Hot Rod out of essentially a pile of junk, really just a shell- but purists at car shows would still criticize him for cutting up a piece of history. Can't make everyone happy, but indeed his project....