Question About Mustang Nickname Origins

[Noha307]

Before everyone thinks this is about the whole Mustang/Apache/Invader discussion - its not. According to pages 6 and 7 of the book P-51 Mustang by Robert Grinsell and Rikyu Watanabe:

The name "Mustang" was recommended by the British Purchasing Commission in an official communique with North American in December, 1940. The new name was based on a song that had made the rounds of both the American and European Continents during the late 1930's.

My questions is: What was the name of the song?

[JohnB]

Mustang Sally?

Seriously, I suppose it would of have to have been a "country and western" song, but I'm not sure how a member of the British Purchasing Commission would have picked up on it. Back then, country wasn't as popular overseas as it is today, and I can't imagine the BBC playing a lot of it (they were pretty conservative in their music choices, hence the rise of the offshore "pirate"-ship based stations in the '60s).

Another possibility would be song from a film or novelty song.

A couple of internet searches have come up blank.

[JFS61]

First thing that came to mind was that it might be something by the Sons of the Pioneers, as they were popular back in the 1930's.

[airnutz]

I did a little surfing around as well, and western, cowboy, hillbilly music, or themed so etc. was abit popular in the mid 30's in Britain. Big Bill Campbell(Canadian transplant)and the Rocky Mountaineers had BBC & Radio Luxembourg radio shows or aired there in the 30's apparently. Dance bands would play western tunes in their selections in the 30's as well. One of them was the Roy Fox(American transplant) Orchestra who were featured in a Brit 1935 movie, "Radio Pirates" aka,"Big Ben Calling", which included the tunes, "Wagon Wheels", "On The Lone Prairie", and "Home on the Range". "Radio Pirates" is about young folks starting a pirate radio station...flaunting the BBC monopoly as Radio Luxembourg did. There are a few examples in the British Pathe Movietone archive as far back as 1933. One of the Brit fan sites dedicated to Denny Dennis, complained that the BBC has axed the pre-1940 listening archives. Anything from our Brit members on the period?

[JohnB]

First thing that came to mind was that it might be something by the Sons of the Pioneers, as they were popular back in the 1930's.

I agree, the first song I researched was (ghost) Riders in the Sky, but it didn't come out until 1949.

[Mike]

https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/song ... stang.html

[Elwyn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puKg1kFP6K8

[Noha307]

https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/s/saddleyourbluestoawildmustang.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puKg1kFP6K8

You guys might just have it! It being "Saddle Your Blues to a Wild Mustang" with words by George Whiting & Buddy Bernier and music by Billy Haid.

A very quick Google search turned up a scanned copy of the sheet music at the National Library of Australia.

I did a little surfing around as well, and western, cowboy, hillbilly music, or themed so etc. was abit popular in the mid 30's in Britain.

The cover of the above sheet music notes that it was "Featured by Bert Howell and his Band in 'The Shell Show'". Now I know exactly zilch about the 1930s era music scene, but could being featured on this show be how it became popular in Britain?

[airnutz]

A very quick Google search turned up a scanned copy of the sheet music at the National Library of Australia.

I did a little surfing around as well, and western, cowboy, hillbilly music, or themed so etc. was abit popular in the mid 30's in Britain.

The cover of the above sheet music notes that it was "Featured by Bert Howell and his Band in 'The Shell Show'". Now I know exactly zilch about the 1930s era music scene, but could being featured on this show be how it became popular in Britain?

Noha, after a bit of reading it appears "Saddle Your Blues To A Wild Mustang" was published in 1936 and probably was introduced to Australia via Bert Howell who was a very popular bandleader and a collector of the latest music....hence his photo on the cover of the Australian edition in your hotlink. Dunno why the library has it misfiled in the 1921-1930 music category. Howell was an English transplant to Australia who did a world tour with Britain as one of his stops in 1933...probably forming a lot of contacts to keep him informed of the latest tunes. The following link is a short but informative bio of Bert...
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/howell- ... bert-10557

The lyricists and writer of "Saddle Your Blues..." were Americans. The song was originally published in 1936 in NY,NY and later had 10 editions in 3 languages.

[Cubs2jets]

Whoa, Nellie!

Hold your horses!

While the original poster's question was reasonable, you armature sleuths are hell bent on deciding the answer to the question. The problem is that what you are coming up with are only good guesses, not definitive answers.

The first problem I see is you are working with information from only ONE source - the book P-51 Mustang by Robert Grinsell and Rikyu Watanabe. What are their "bona fides"? Is there corroborating evidence for their statement? What if their assertion was based on hearsay, not facts? (Not that that has EVER happened in a book.)

The second problem is that, while the British Purchasing Commission recommended the name Mustang, what is the corroboration that the name came from a song? And IF it came from a song, you are making assumptions as to what song it MIGHT have been.

This might all be FUN to SPECULATE about, but you guys are running like wild horses to a conclusion that will only be an urban myth that will have to be untangled in the future.

Be careful with your declarative statements!

C2j

[airnutz]

Whoa, Nellie!

Hold your horses!

While the original poster's question was reasonable, you armature sleuths are heck bent on deciding the answer to the question. The problem is that what you are coming up with are only good guesses, not definitive answers.

The first problem I see is you are working with information from only ONE source - the book P-51 Mustang by Robert Grinsell and Rikyu Watanabe. What are their "bona fides"? Is there corroborating evidence for their statement? What if their assertion was based on hearsay, not facts? (Not that that has EVER happened in a book.)

The second problem is that, while the British Purchasing Commission recommended the name Mustang, what is the corroboration that the name came from a song? And IF it came from a song, you are making assumptions as to what song it MIGHT have been.

This might all be FUN to SPECULATE about, but you guys are running like wild horses to a conclusion that will only be an urban myth that will have to be untangled in the future.

Be careful with your declarative statements!

C2j

Cubs, only one person has mentioned about a song MAY be IT. The story is not unique to THAT book. Tho I'll be going back thru my collection of Mustang stuff for more info. I've got a copy of the book and I view it as a OK historic content on the P-51 with excellent illustrations by Watanabe....a nice coffee table book at 48 pages.. I've been more interested in how much American western lore had been spread in Britain prior to the Yanks arrival in support of WW2. There was plenty of exposure thru our films, music..oh yeah...and a crapload of their relatives ended up on this side of the pond and kept in contact with Ol' Blighty. It's possible the Commission came up with the name thru general exposure to our lore. Tho the lyrics to "Saddle Your Blues" are apt for the Mustang. We'll putter around and sniff and poke at things. No footrace here trying to prove something...so take a chill pill.


PS
I was surprised to find when on tour in Britain in '39, Gene Autry picked up a new song from 2 Irishmen that he would later record... "South of the Border"(Down Mexico Way) Hmmmn...go figure!!!

[Noha307]

Dude, calm down.

This might all be FUN to SPECULATE about, but you guys are running like wild horses to a conclusion that will only be an urban myth that will have to be untangled in the future.

We're talking on an online forum, not writing the authoritative book on Mustangs. I don't think one WIX thread will establish the story as unimpeachable fact.

The first problem I see is you are working with information from only ONE source - the book P-51 Mustang by Robert Grinsell and Rikyu Watanabe. What are their "bona fides"?

Well, Mr. Watanabe worked with Robert Mikesh on another book in the same series about the Zero. Mr. Mikesh was a curator at NASM and the expert on WWII Japanese aircraft. So, I would expect any book series that includes someone of Mr. Mikesh's caliber is likely to use equally qualified authors for the other volumes. This may be a mistake, but it's more than you can say for a lot of the other warbird books out there.

However, do I agree that it is sometimes important to question certain author's bona fides. For example, I have found that a lot of Martin Caidin's works contain errors. I can't find the it anymore, but there was a good article that noted a number of discrepancies between the English and Japanese versions of Saburo Sakai's Samurai!

Be careful with your declarative statements!

If you'll note, my comment read: "You guys might just have it!", not "You guys have it!".

I am the first one to qualify my statements. In fact, if you were to look through some of the historical notes I have made, I have probably watered down some of my statements with so many "mays" and "mights" and "possiblys" as to make them worthless.

As a matter of fact, literally two days ago I made a post on the talk page for the B-17 Wikipedia article questioning the exact story behind the origin of the Flying Fortress nickname. I think it sufficiently demonstrates my dedication to the truth as well as questioning what has been taken as long established fact.

At the museum where I work, I have made it my policy that all questions be answered truthfully. I right now, I literally have notes in an app on my phone for a potential future volunteer policy that read "be honest, don't make things up" and "if a visitor asks a question you don't know the answer to: let them know that you don't know the answer".

So, I apologize if my response seems harsh, but you have touched on something I have very strong feelings about; and while I appreciate your dedication to accuracy, I think you might be the one going overboard.

EDIT: Found the Saburo Sakai article!

Last edited by Noha307 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

[quemerford]

I'm sure an old NAA Tech Rep told me that the original name was 'Charger' not 'Mustang' - or did I dream that?