Another Lost Squadron expidition

[Warbirdnerd]

From Here:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/ ... 83077.html

Hoping Lightning strikes again in Greenland
(Thu, Jul/13/2006)


It's a long way from Bucks County to the frozen wastes of Greenland, but Joe Meyers of Silverdale is planning a trip there that will span thousands of miles and almost 65 years back in time.

For Meyers it's the culmination of a lifetime of interest in aviation and history.

Meyers is operations manager of Operation Bolero Recovery and Restoration Group Inc. It's a nonprofit organization dedicated to the recovery and restoration of World War II aircraft and to sharing the history of these vintage aircraft with future generations.

Meyers' wife, Jeannie, is the group's president. For both of them, it has become a full-time job.

Their goal is to recover and eventually restore the remaining aircraft of the “Lost Squadron.”

The squadron consisted of six P-38 Lightning fighter planes and two B-17 bombers that were forced to crash-land in the rugged terrain of eastern Greenland, near the Arctic Circle, in July 1942.

Operation Bolero was the World War II code name of one of the U.S. military's methods of getting warplanes to the fighting in Europe. Typically, the planes were flown from Maine to refueling stops in Canada, Greenland, Iceland and then on to Scotland or England.

The planes of the “Lost Squadron” were on the Greenland to Iceland leg of their journey when bad weather forced them to return to Greenland. They ran out of fuel and had to crash-land in ice and snow. The airmen were rescued 11 days later, but the planes remain where they landed and are now buried beneath hundreds of feet of ice.

An expedition in 1992 recovered one of the P-38s from beneath 268 feet of glacial ice. Given the name “Glacier Girl,” the vintage warplane has been restored and is again flying. It's based at the Lost Squadron Museum in Middlesboro, Ky.

Meyers wants to find the remaining planes and, as his group's motto says, “Bring 'em home!”

He plans to go to Greenland next month for preliminary work and hopes to launch the recovery mission early next spring.

The group's still in the process of raising funds for the expedition (total costs are expected to be around $3 million), but has already received significant support from individuals and such companies as GEL Geophysics LLC, Mala Geosciences USA Inc., General Engineering Geophysics LLC and others.

Meyers has begun to amass the arctic survival gear and other equipment the expedition will require.

His personal love affair with aviation began as a youngster with the Civil Air Patrol and student pilot. He served in the Navy 31/2 years as an aviation fire control technician and has been restoration and operations manager with the Delaware Valley Historical Aircraft Association in Horsham for five years.

He's a member of the P-38 National Association; Planes of Fame, Chino, Calif.; the 463rd Bomb Group Historical Society; the Experimental Aircraft Association; the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association; the Naval Air Station Wildwood Aviation Museum; the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum; the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the American Legion.

Sitting in the basement of his home, which serves as the office of the Operation Bolero group and is also something of a museum of military aviation history, Meyers talks about his interest in the aircraft of World War II and the men who flew them.

“We really should remember that generation. They really were the greatest generation,” he says. “And we should educate the younger generations about what they accomplished.

“If I can someday see those other P-38s in Greenland restored and flying again just like "Glacier Girl,' I'll be very, very happy.”

To learn more about Operation Bolero Recovery and Restoration Group or to become a member, visit the group's Web site at www.operationbolero.org or phone (215) 453-1484.

Lou Sessinger is a columnist with The Intelligencer. He can be contacted at (215) 957-8172 or lsessinger@phillyBurbs.com.
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Article's URL:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/ ... 83077.html

[B-29 Super Fort]

Depending on how many planes they hope to recover $3 million seems like a low figure, but nonetheless, I wish them luck.

[Robbie Stuart]

3 Million ain't gonna touch it!
Robbie

[Django]

I think 3 mil is a bit optimistic myself, but I too wish them all the luck in the world! I would think they are just going after the P-38, right? The one B-17 they found was crushed.

[FlyingFortB17]

Minus all of the expiditions that spanned over a decade before they found and raised the P-38, that specific dig and salvage job back in '92 did not cost more than $1mil. As I recall, the actual numbers were listed in the The Lost Squadron book that I have. With today's technology, who knows what they have planned. If they can limit the trips (time is money) and manpower with technology, $3mil can go a long way. Granted there are another 6 or more planes to be raised. I like the optimism.

Last edited by FlyingFortB17 on Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Shay]

I'm curious about the salvage rights.

The German group that is also planning an expedition sometime in '07 says the were granted the salvage rights from the Dutch.

Is Mr. meyers just planning on going up there and taking them?

To recover Glacier Girl, just 1 of the 8 aircraft it cost Roy Shoffner over $600.000.

If rights have been granted to another party then I think Mr. Meyers might run into more problems besides just money.

But Perhaps maybe the Danish goverment grants the right of salvage as a first come first serve type basis. Anyone know?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[Shay]

The one B-17 they found was crushed.

Yeah but you know what. Even 2 flattened B-17 can be restored nowadays and if not, they can atleast subsidise the expedition through their parts.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[FlyingFortB17]

Boy, they would really need to make a big hole in the ice to raise those B-17s. Granted, the fuselage area on "Big Stoop" was mostly unrecognizable, but you'd think the wings/engine stayed pretty much intact. Who knows, the fate of "Doo-Doo" might have been totally different. They never dug down to her.

[tom d. friedman]

i wonder how much thicker the ice build up is since glacier girl's recovery. it was 246 or 264 feet down at that time of recovery, can't remember which but involves those numbers scrambled either way!!! i would assume they'll use alot of the same technology utilized by greenamyer back in the 90's, such as that copper tubing drill thing. i wish em luck & god speed!!

[RMAllnutt]

Not to sound harsh, as I fully support anyone bold enough to try and do this, but the website left me thinking they were a little naive.

I can't understand someone serious about doing this thinking that listing that they are almost a private pilot would instill confidence in the outside world... or that they were members of all those different museums/organizations. None of those groups require anything more than dues to become members. Where are the real leadership qualities or experience that we should expect from someone about to undertake such an operation? Why should I (or anyone) give money to someone so unproven? They need to make a more serious case for their efforts before they get real support. It's going to take a lot more than $3M to get more than one aircraft out too.

Also, as has already been mentioned, there is a German outfit which claimed to have the rights to the recoveries. Not that saying such means it's true of course, but I imagine the new team would have to negotiate with them. Not to mention the Danish government. When the original team went in to recover Glacier Girl they had been going to recover several of the P-38's, maybe even all of them. Part of the deal which gave them the rights to recover the aircraft was that one of them would go to Denmark. That never happened of course, but I am sure the Danes haven't forgotten.

There are a lot of spaces in the information that need filling in before I will feel confident about this operation's effectiveness, but I have high hopes they will succeed.

Cheers,
Richard

PS. Due to the severe effects of global warming, much of the ice around Greenland's coast is much, much thinner than it was ten years ago, so perhaps there will be less ice to penetrate to find the P-38's this time around.

[DryMartini]

Once a week, all WIXers get an aerosol can, point it in the
direction of Greenland, and in 5 or 6 years, we could pick the
pieces out of the snow without having to do any digging!

[TimAPNY]

I made a visit this past week to the lost Squadron Museum. I was told, over heard, that the aircraft are now about 400 feet down under the ice. I'm sure that will drive cost up. Come on Global Warming, give us a hand here!

I'd love to see the other a/c recovered but I wonder if it is really worth the $$. The love of the a/c is a completely different matter but one would need some VERY DEEP Pockets.

Tim

[RickH]

Ok lets look at the math. When the original aircraft was recovered it was 256 ft down. It took 60 years to get that deep. Now just 10-12 years later they are now 400 ft down. So much for global warming.

For the first 60 years they sank at approximately 4.3 ft per year but in the last 10 they sank an additional 10 feet per year. Is there an exponential increase in sinkage at work here? What has caused this accelerated rate ?

[RMAllnutt]

They are not sinking, so much as being covered with new layers of ice. it depends upon where they are with respect to the coastal regions. The oceans in general are warming at an alarming rate, which has caused the outer edges of the ice to melt dramatically. In a peculiar twist though, since there is less area of ice covering the outer edges, those areas of ice further in-land have thickened slightly, because without the insulation properties of the outer layers of ice, the sea-water closer to the north pole has gotten a little colder.

A close analogy would be how thick layers of snow insulate those below, and can actually cause them to melt even with freezing air temperatures. When you take away those layers of snow though, the insulating properties have gone, and the snow stays frozen. Anyone who's played in the snow should know this.

I know that probably sounds as clear as mud though, but it is actually what is happening in the north. A raise in the oceans temperature of 1 degree celcius might not sound like much, but when you consider the enormous amount of energy required to do it, it really is quite staggering! You are talking billions and billions of terrawatts (probably more actually).

That being said, I don't believe that the P-38's are under 400' of ice now. I think that's just a bit of guff to make it seem less attractive to go back. Afterall, glacier girl is unique so far and, in their hearts, I imagine those guys would kinda like to keep it unique. Wouldn't be half as glamorous for them with five glacier girls flying around now would it... of course, for those of us on the outside, it would be awesome!

Cheers,
Richard

[bdk]

They are not sinking, so much as being covered with new layers of ice. it depends upon where they are with respect to the coastal regions. The oceans in general are warming at an alarming rate, which has caused the outer edges of the ice to melt dramatically. In a peculiar twist though, since there is less area of ice covering the outer edges, those areas of ice further in-land have thickened slightly, because without the insulation properties of the outer layers of ice, the sea-water closer to the north pole has gotten a little colder.

I am not alarmed...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635077/posts

"What we know is that the global average temperature has risen by about 1 degree Celsius or less since the late 1800s. We also know that industrial activity has raised atmospheric carbon-dioxide concentrations, and that this increase should make things warmer. But there is wide disagreement about the extent to which carbon-dioxide emissions are responsible for the warming we’ve seen so far, and how much warming they will cause in the future.

Fred Singer of George Mason University points out that “we have historic [temperature] records in Europe going back a thousand years. It was much warmer then than today. The Arctic was much warmer a thousand years ago than it is today. Polar bears survived. The ice caps survived.” And data from ice cores suggest that previous interglacial periods were warmer than the one we’re going through now."

Now this real science alarms me:

"On Wednesday, two geophysics professors at the University of Chicago warned those who eat red meat that their increased flatulence contributes to greenhouse gases."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060 ... -7360r.htm

A close analogy would be how thick layers of snow insulate those below, and can actually cause them to melt even with freezing air temperatures. When you take away those layers of snow though, the insulating properties have gone, and the snow stays frozen. Anyone who's played in the snow should know this.

Unless you live in Texas where the state shuts down when it snows!

I know that probably sounds as clear as mud though, but it is actually what is happening in the north. A raise in the oceans temperature of 1 degree celcius might not sound like much, but when you consider the enormous amount of energy required to do it, it really is quite staggering! You are talking billions and billions of terrawatts (probably more actually).

That being said, I don't believe that the P-38's are under 400' of ice now. I think that's just a bit of guff to make it seem less attractive to go back. Afterall, glacier girl is unique so far and, in their hearts, I imagine those guys would kinda like to keep it unique. Wouldn't be half as glamorous for them with five glacier girls flying around now would it... of course, for those of us on the outside, it would be awesome!

It also doen't make it clear to me that this makes the recovery much more difficult. You just need a little longer rope to hoist the aircraft out. While the weight of the additional snow/ice is greater, there is no way to know if this affects any of those aircraft specifically. Some could be in pockets of lower density and others in pockets of high density. Were all the aircraft reviewed for damage prior to recovering Glacier Girl?

Cheers,
Richard