The WIX warbird
Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:54 am
Okay, I've seen enough in the polls. Next topic...
Last edited by Forgotten Field on Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:40 am
Im all for it, but I cant shell out 1000 maybe 200.
And second (I dont know if you already put this down, because I got board and hence didnt read it all
) but the a/c needs more than two seats.
And second (I dont know if you already put this down, because I got board and hence didnt read it all
) but the a/c needs more than two seats.
Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:21 pm
I agree about the "more than 2 seats" requirement. Not every warbird enthusiast is a pilot. As such, you'll get a greater response if both pilots and non-pilots are capable of going for a ride.
I also think the plane should be of enough interest to be able to attract interest of airshows. That way, it can tour the country from time to time, allowing more WIXers a chance to meet up with her and take a ride.
I also agree that there will be more interest if it isn't a "project" plane. Investing in an aircraft that might fly in 10 years will draw less investors than a plane that can be operational in less than a year or two.
I think the most fun would be to invest in a two engined plane capable of flying multiple people at once. There's a beautiful A-26C on the Courtesy Aircraft site that would be ideal...$479,000 is quite spendy, however. But it's an example of an attractive, in-demand warbird that would carry several people at once...but would be the pride of any fleet. While that A-26C will probably long be sold before WIX is ready to purchase a plane, it is a good example of a type of aricraft that would proabably best suit the group as a whole.
Other good options that I see would be a DC-3 (C-47), B-25, C-46 (a rarity in the continental US, but still obtainable), PBY, etc. An airworthy example of these types can probably be had for somewhere in the $250,000-$500,000 range. The only downfall of two large engines are the fuel costs. But the more attractive the aircraft, the more people will want to invest in it, and the more people there are to put fuel in it's wings. While a primary trainer would be cheaper overall to purchase and operate, you won't get the same level of interest (either from investors or airshows) that you would get from a B-25 or A-26.
Just my 2 cents worth. If the group decided to go with a 2-seater, I would still be willing to offer some support.
I also think the plane should be of enough interest to be able to attract interest of airshows. That way, it can tour the country from time to time, allowing more WIXers a chance to meet up with her and take a ride.
I also agree that there will be more interest if it isn't a "project" plane. Investing in an aircraft that might fly in 10 years will draw less investors than a plane that can be operational in less than a year or two.
I think the most fun would be to invest in a two engined plane capable of flying multiple people at once. There's a beautiful A-26C on the Courtesy Aircraft site that would be ideal...$479,000 is quite spendy, however. But it's an example of an attractive, in-demand warbird that would carry several people at once...but would be the pride of any fleet. While that A-26C will probably long be sold before WIX is ready to purchase a plane, it is a good example of a type of aricraft that would proabably best suit the group as a whole.
Other good options that I see would be a DC-3 (C-47), B-25, C-46 (a rarity in the continental US, but still obtainable), PBY, etc. An airworthy example of these types can probably be had for somewhere in the $250,000-$500,000 range. The only downfall of two large engines are the fuel costs. But the more attractive the aircraft, the more people will want to invest in it, and the more people there are to put fuel in it's wings. While a primary trainer would be cheaper overall to purchase and operate, you won't get the same level of interest (either from investors or airshows) that you would get from a B-25 or A-26.
Just my 2 cents worth. If the group decided to go with a 2-seater, I would still be willing to offer some support.
Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:44 pm
No restoration needed
Single-engine (for reduced maintenance and operating costs)
Recognizable by average enthusiast
Combat history
Cargo-carrying ability
Multiple-seat
Affordability
Dunno' fellas...but this sounds like a TBM
Single-engine (for reduced maintenance and operating costs)
Recognizable by average enthusiast
Combat history
Cargo-carrying ability
Multiple-seat
Affordability
Dunno' fellas...but this sounds like a TBM
Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:20 pm
Dan K wrote:Dunno' fellas...but this sounds like a TBM
For a single engine plane, that sounds like an excellent choice. How many people, within reason, can ride in a TBM (other than the pilot, of course)?
Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:42 pm
Between 2-3. 2 Comfortably but 3 if someone can fit in the turret.
Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:13 pm
perhaps more than 3 IF you make it the COD version
Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:41 pm
I like the idea of a troop transport a/c, like the C-47 or C-46. That way if it tours the country you can charge for rides at the airshows to pay for the operational costs.
Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:14 pm
I might have a solution, We operate the AC-47 gunship as a non-profit museum, we are based in Topeka, KS and fly all over the country to airshows. I think we could be partners on this with WIX. alot of details to work out but possible. PS: we fly with crew of 2 and 4 pax seats insured.
Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:37 pm
Sounds like you need a Avenger or Skyraider (not the single seat version obviously) or god help us, an AN-2 
I do like Spookyboss's idea, maybe sponsoring an exsisting aircraft is the way to go?
I do like Spookyboss's idea, maybe sponsoring an exsisting aircraft is the way to go?
Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:49 pm
That SpookyBoss is sneeeaaakkkyyy ! 
Didn't he just have to buy an expensive engine ?
I like the way he just slid that suggestion right in there!
It is, BTW a great idea. Why reinvent the wheel, support one that's out there doing it and call it your own.
Didn't he just have to buy an expensive engine ?
I like the way he just slid that suggestion right in there!
It is, BTW a great idea. Why reinvent the wheel, support one that's out there doing it and call it your own.
Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:54 pm
Maybe we could have a Confederate, Yankee and Left Coast Wing of WIX. It needs to have seats for us non-pilots. Invest and pay for airshow tour expenses sounds great. And Scott would be the KING. All sounds a bit strange but a lot of fun until the battle of ego’s start.
Good thing I don't see me having $1000 to invest and try to explain that to Kelly 
Tim
Good thing I don't see me having $1000 to invest and try to explain that to Kelly
Tim
Another minor issue
Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:10 pm
All,
The single biggest consideration in the operation of a warbird will the ability to get INSURED. There have been mentions of T-28s, TBMs and Skyraiders as the choice. Very few of the people who would need to pool their resources to experience flying a warbird will qualify for insurance in this type of warbird. The high horsepower tailwheels and multi engines are definitely out.
Any aircraft over 12,500 gross weight or 1000 HP will reguire a type rating of some form.
I encourage you all to continue to pursue your dreams, but get educated on the insurance realities.
Also, I won't risk the liability that my assets (read all my other warbirds) could be exposed to through participation in the group aircraft. I would expect that in the event of an accident EVERY member would be sued.
Sorry, but that's the harsh legal reality that we face, everytime we yell "clear".
The single biggest consideration in the operation of a warbird will the ability to get INSURED. There have been mentions of T-28s, TBMs and Skyraiders as the choice. Very few of the people who would need to pool their resources to experience flying a warbird will qualify for insurance in this type of warbird. The high horsepower tailwheels and multi engines are definitely out.
Any aircraft over 12,500 gross weight or 1000 HP will reguire a type rating of some form.
I encourage you all to continue to pursue your dreams, but get educated on the insurance realities.
Also, I won't risk the liability that my assets (read all my other warbirds) could be exposed to through participation in the group aircraft. I would expect that in the event of an accident EVERY member would be sued.
Sorry, but that's the harsh legal reality that we face, everytime we yell "clear".
Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:42 pm
I watched this same scenario played out as a kid in Kansas City, when Frank Howerton and a couple of other guys at the old Independence Airport decided one Saturday (in 1977) to buy a B-25. They found one (in flying condition) in Chino and bought it for $11,000 with a spare engine. Steve Hinton was hired (for $150 plus expenses) to be the chief pilot for the ferry flight, and he and Howerton flew her back to Kansas City with no problems.
That was the beginning of the Fairfax Ghost. The Kansas City Warbirds owners group grew to almost 200 investors and lasted for about 15 years, until financial strains and personal frictions finally ended the venture. The group ran ads in the paper, courted sponsors, and tried to make expense money on the airshow circuit, but in the end it was a loosing battle. Today the B-25 sits in Austria wearing a Red Bull insignia.
The complete story is very well documented in the book, "Fairfax Ghost", by George Bauer. If you guys are really serious about a group warbird I would highly suggest you find a copy. I believe you will find it most enlightening.
I especially like one particular quote in the book by Frank Howerton. Frank says, "I wouldn't buy another B-25 for a dime, but I wouldn't take a million dollars for the joy I have had out of this one."
That was the beginning of the Fairfax Ghost. The Kansas City Warbirds owners group grew to almost 200 investors and lasted for about 15 years, until financial strains and personal frictions finally ended the venture. The group ran ads in the paper, courted sponsors, and tried to make expense money on the airshow circuit, but in the end it was a loosing battle. Today the B-25 sits in Austria wearing a Red Bull insignia.
The complete story is very well documented in the book, "Fairfax Ghost", by George Bauer. If you guys are really serious about a group warbird I would highly suggest you find a copy. I believe you will find it most enlightening.
I especially like one particular quote in the book by Frank Howerton. Frank says, "I wouldn't buy another B-25 for a dime, but I wouldn't take a million dollars for the joy I have had out of this one."
Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:48 pm
I am all for an L-Bird...Wag-Aero sells plans and kits for the L-4. Its cheap...and within reason of everyone on the board. The guys that designed the Neuport replicas built a fleet of the things and have a ball doing airshows. Albeit these are single pilot aircraft and not exactly a warbird...but you get the general idea. Realistically, you could have "WIX" regions, much like the CAF wings. Aircraft that are owned, and operated by WIX members. A C-47, TBM, or a Skyraider? At an average of $4.00 a gallon for Avgas, aquisition cost, engine replacement cost, insurance cost, Hangar Rental, its a daunting proposition.
Example ...Cub
C-85/0-200 $6,000 - $10,000
Kit (can be purchased as sub assemblies) around $15,000
Fabric $1,500
Burns 5gph
Looks Authentic
Anyone can learn to fly it and just about anyone can build one and the potential to make a big smoking hole is minimal.
TBM, Skyraider, C-47 engines
R-1830 $35,000 - $65,000
R-2600 $?40,000+
R-3350 $100,000 (precision)
prop AD's $$$$
Aquisition...too many 0's
Maintenance...too many 0's
Type ratings required
Insurance to many 0's
Is this an "out of pocket venture, or 501c3 ride operation?"
Nowadays, the only way to own a warbird, in my opinion, is to make it pay for itself. We fly the bombers everyday, Crazy Horse flies everyday, Liberty Bell flies everyday...and on and on
Gotta start somewhere...
Jim Harley
Example ...Cub
C-85/0-200 $6,000 - $10,000
Kit (can be purchased as sub assemblies) around $15,000
Fabric $1,500
Burns 5gph
Looks Authentic
Anyone can learn to fly it and just about anyone can build one and the potential to make a big smoking hole is minimal.
TBM, Skyraider, C-47 engines
R-1830 $35,000 - $65,000
R-2600 $?40,000+
R-3350 $100,000 (precision)
prop AD's $$$$
Aquisition...too many 0's
Maintenance...too many 0's
Type ratings required
Insurance to many 0's
Is this an "out of pocket venture, or 501c3 ride operation?"
Nowadays, the only way to own a warbird, in my opinion, is to make it pay for itself. We fly the bombers everyday, Crazy Horse flies everyday, Liberty Bell flies everyday...and on and on
Gotta start somewhere...
Jim Harley