Walter Mitty Syndrome-What piqued your interest in Warbirds?
Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:28 pm
I have to admit, my interest in Warbirds really had nothing to do with history, it had to do with "sport" flying and the challenge- including the dream of future challenges.
It was a challenge to get my PPL, it was a challenge to get checked out in a taildragger, it was a challenge to master my Stearman. I never really considered how many Naval aviators or aces soloed in my Stearman, although I did notice it was delivered a month before Pearl Harbor.
I have met my share of well known warbird pilots, and I'll have to admit that to me it seemed they were more sport pilots, mechanics, and businessmen rather than aircraft historians. I see living history and reenactment folks as a bit odd myself. It makes as much sense to me as someone wanting to live in a cave and pretending to be a caveman or relive the "Old West" (neither of which feature air conditioning). And yet there are a great number of these reenactor type folks to be found at airshows and historic military vehicle meets.
I always had a passing knowledge of history from model building, but I don't consider myself to be a real history buff (although some friends might disagree compared to most "normal" people). My interest lies in the design of the hardware (the reason I became an Aerospace Engineer) and the challenge of aviation (the reason I became a pilot). I don't feel the urge to pretend that I'm the Red Baron trying to shoot down Snoopy- I'm not trying to live vicariously through heroes of the past.
So here is my question...
How many here find their primary interest to be history, and how many find their interest to be high performance/challenging flying, how many are the Walter Mitty vicarious flyer types? Somehow I just don't see Steve Patterson imagining himself battling Migs over Korea in his Sea Fury after taking off from the HMS Ocean...
What motivates you?
It was a challenge to get my PPL, it was a challenge to get checked out in a taildragger, it was a challenge to master my Stearman. I never really considered how many Naval aviators or aces soloed in my Stearman, although I did notice it was delivered a month before Pearl Harbor.
I have met my share of well known warbird pilots, and I'll have to admit that to me it seemed they were more sport pilots, mechanics, and businessmen rather than aircraft historians. I see living history and reenactment folks as a bit odd myself. It makes as much sense to me as someone wanting to live in a cave and pretending to be a caveman or relive the "Old West" (neither of which feature air conditioning). And yet there are a great number of these reenactor type folks to be found at airshows and historic military vehicle meets.
I always had a passing knowledge of history from model building, but I don't consider myself to be a real history buff (although some friends might disagree compared to most "normal" people). My interest lies in the design of the hardware (the reason I became an Aerospace Engineer) and the challenge of aviation (the reason I became a pilot). I don't feel the urge to pretend that I'm the Red Baron trying to shoot down Snoopy- I'm not trying to live vicariously through heroes of the past.
So here is my question...
How many here find their primary interest to be history, and how many find their interest to be high performance/challenging flying, how many are the Walter Mitty vicarious flyer types? Somehow I just don't see Steve Patterson imagining himself battling Migs over Korea in his Sea Fury after taking off from the HMS Ocean...
What motivates you?
Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:28 am
What motivates us?
That's an interesting question, but not one that necessarily has only one answer. When I first viewed your poll choices I probably would have picked "Flying &/or maintaining high performance/kicka$$ planes" except that whenever I try to call a Stearman a high performance airplane I start to giggle.
But I love to fly her on warm, sunny, CALM evenings, and I love opening the cowlings and peering into her innards with a flashlight and an inspection mirror, or jacking her up to pull the wheels and adjust the brakes - so much so that I'm restoring another one to keep her company.
That said, it's very, very important to me to know the detailed histories of all of my airplanes, not just in a general sense but the actual specific details of the lives that these individual airplanes have lived. I know for example the name of the young RAF cadet that pranaged my BT-13 in Florida - I have a treasured copy of his class's graduation picture that was taken just a few days after the accident. His name was Chamberlain and he wasn't washed out but went on to fly Mosquitos and was killed in '44 on a night intruder sortie in Europe. It's important for me to know that, although I secretly suspect that most times I'm the only person in the world to whom that matters anymore.
The history of the battles? Somewhat, although I'm the first to admit that I'm more of an aircraft technical historian than a military one. I can tell you far and away more about how a B-24D differs from a B-24J than I can about why the Ploesti attack was not the wisest tactical use of four engine heavy bombers.
The sacrifices of the pilots and people? Yes - it's very important to remember those people and the sacrifices that they made because as long as we do that, as long as we remember what those people had to do and had to give up, had to live through and why, then maybe we'll never let it happen again. So if flying my Stearman around where people can see and hear her, and taking her to airshows and fly-ins and pancake breakfasts where they can walk up to and touch her and look and sit in the cockpits and ask questions - if that makes people stop for a moment and remember the past, you won't hear me bitch about the price of fuel.
Living history/reenactment? No. I'm sure this isn't fair, and I'm sure it's an opinion based on ignorance, but reenacters generally strike me as "wannabees". (Especially when they won't/don't take their sunglasses off indoors.)
Pretending I'm a famous military aviator (Walter Mitty)? Nope. Although while looking at a pile of metal shavings at the bottom of a paper paint filter and noting all the bearing material in it, I have been guilty of wishing I was a certain rich warbird collector so I could just whip out my cell and call JRS and order a new one!
But I'll add one to your list; the love of tangible history. My girlfriend was in the hangar a couple of weeks ago looking at my very derelict Vultee and questioning my sanity (or lack thereof). She even used the dreaded "j" word - the one that rymes with "skunk". But after she'd had her fun and made her little pokes at me I started showing her around it. The gearbox still full of grease that was probably last greased while Jimmy Doolittle was still walking through China thinking he was gonna get court martialed when he got home. The nuts and bolts holding the throttle quadrants to the frame that hadn't had a wrench put on them since before Pearl Harbour. The electrical schematic inside the junction box that had just seen daylight the day before for probably the first time since Dick Winters first strapped on a 'chute and a jump knife. The original paint sprayed by Rosie herself. All of these little details suddenly brought the past to life for her. The fourties, the War, Hitler... all of that had been real because here was the proof right in front of her that she could reach out and touch and feel. It wasn't just a couple of chapters in a history book anymore, it was real after all, because here was the proof.
(Whether or not it'll ever fly again is still something else for her though!)
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to battle the evil "Yellow Baron" in his J-3 Cub. I'll be the guy in the orange Champ. The loser is the guy who comes home with the least ammount of toilet paper in his tail brace wires, and the loser has to buy the first round!
Dan
That's an interesting question, but not one that necessarily has only one answer. When I first viewed your poll choices I probably would have picked "Flying &/or maintaining high performance/kicka$$ planes" except that whenever I try to call a Stearman a high performance airplane I start to giggle.
But I love to fly her on warm, sunny, CALM evenings, and I love opening the cowlings and peering into her innards with a flashlight and an inspection mirror, or jacking her up to pull the wheels and adjust the brakes - so much so that I'm restoring another one to keep her company.
That said, it's very, very important to me to know the detailed histories of all of my airplanes, not just in a general sense but the actual specific details of the lives that these individual airplanes have lived. I know for example the name of the young RAF cadet that pranaged my BT-13 in Florida - I have a treasured copy of his class's graduation picture that was taken just a few days after the accident. His name was Chamberlain and he wasn't washed out but went on to fly Mosquitos and was killed in '44 on a night intruder sortie in Europe. It's important for me to know that, although I secretly suspect that most times I'm the only person in the world to whom that matters anymore.
The history of the battles? Somewhat, although I'm the first to admit that I'm more of an aircraft technical historian than a military one. I can tell you far and away more about how a B-24D differs from a B-24J than I can about why the Ploesti attack was not the wisest tactical use of four engine heavy bombers.
The sacrifices of the pilots and people? Yes - it's very important to remember those people and the sacrifices that they made because as long as we do that, as long as we remember what those people had to do and had to give up, had to live through and why, then maybe we'll never let it happen again. So if flying my Stearman around where people can see and hear her, and taking her to airshows and fly-ins and pancake breakfasts where they can walk up to and touch her and look and sit in the cockpits and ask questions - if that makes people stop for a moment and remember the past, you won't hear me bitch about the price of fuel.
Living history/reenactment? No. I'm sure this isn't fair, and I'm sure it's an opinion based on ignorance, but reenacters generally strike me as "wannabees". (Especially when they won't/don't take their sunglasses off indoors.)
Pretending I'm a famous military aviator (Walter Mitty)? Nope. Although while looking at a pile of metal shavings at the bottom of a paper paint filter and noting all the bearing material in it, I have been guilty of wishing I was a certain rich warbird collector so I could just whip out my cell and call JRS and order a new one!
But I'll add one to your list; the love of tangible history. My girlfriend was in the hangar a couple of weeks ago looking at my very derelict Vultee and questioning my sanity (or lack thereof). She even used the dreaded "j" word - the one that rymes with "skunk". But after she'd had her fun and made her little pokes at me I started showing her around it. The gearbox still full of grease that was probably last greased while Jimmy Doolittle was still walking through China thinking he was gonna get court martialed when he got home. The nuts and bolts holding the throttle quadrants to the frame that hadn't had a wrench put on them since before Pearl Harbour. The electrical schematic inside the junction box that had just seen daylight the day before for probably the first time since Dick Winters first strapped on a 'chute and a jump knife. The original paint sprayed by Rosie herself. All of these little details suddenly brought the past to life for her. The fourties, the War, Hitler... all of that had been real because here was the proof right in front of her that she could reach out and touch and feel. It wasn't just a couple of chapters in a history book anymore, it was real after all, because here was the proof.
(Whether or not it'll ever fly again is still something else for her though!)
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to battle the evil "Yellow Baron" in his J-3 Cub. I'll be the guy in the orange Champ. The loser is the guy who comes home with the least ammount of toilet paper in his tail brace wires, and the loser has to buy the first round!
Dan
Last edited by Dan Jones on Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:27 am
As an historian of absolutley no note whatsoever, I can tell you there is a proper history term for warbirds: primary texts. A primary text is anything (not just a document) that is of the time that it represents. Warbirds are as important to history as any of the other primary texts that we cherish today. The loss of a warbird is like losing a piece of history that we can only ever talk about, not touch, in the future.
America, imagine for a second that all the napoleon guns around the country were confiscated and smelted. You'd still have pictures to show, but something tangible would be gone forever. Something you could once touch you could touch no more.
Australia is the same, as is Canada. We all have our icons that we strive to preserve because to lose them would be to lose touch. Warbirds are one of the most important of all primary texts, because they can still operate as they were designed; still perform the functions they performed in their time.
Having static displays in museums is OK, but the sounds and the smells are not preserved. That's why we have to keep warbirds in the air, so the sight, sound, smell and touch is maintained.
I'm off to the home of Australian warbirds this weekend, the Temora Aviation Museum. For two days I will be happily immersed in yesterday with the sight of a Canberra, Gloster Meteor, Spitfire, P51, CAC Boomerang, Vampire, T28 and all their companions (the Hudson was not listed, but we can hope) rolling through the skies above a former WWII EFTS base. The sounds of Rolls Royce and P&W will complete the experience.
That's why I love warbirds, because the historical experience is complete.
Walrus
America, imagine for a second that all the napoleon guns around the country were confiscated and smelted. You'd still have pictures to show, but something tangible would be gone forever. Something you could once touch you could touch no more.
Australia is the same, as is Canada. We all have our icons that we strive to preserve because to lose them would be to lose touch. Warbirds are one of the most important of all primary texts, because they can still operate as they were designed; still perform the functions they performed in their time.
Having static displays in museums is OK, but the sounds and the smells are not preserved. That's why we have to keep warbirds in the air, so the sight, sound, smell and touch is maintained.
I'm off to the home of Australian warbirds this weekend, the Temora Aviation Museum. For two days I will be happily immersed in yesterday with the sight of a Canberra, Gloster Meteor, Spitfire, P51, CAC Boomerang, Vampire, T28 and all their companions (the Hudson was not listed, but we can hope) rolling through the skies above a former WWII EFTS base. The sounds of Rolls Royce and P&W will complete the experience.
That's why I love warbirds, because the historical experience is complete.
Walrus
Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:06 am
In one of my former lives I was a ball turret gunner! 
John
John
Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:07 am
Dan Jones wrote:What motivates us?
Living history/reenactment? No. I'm sure this isn't fair, and I'm sure it's an opinion based on ignorance, but reenacters generally strike me as "wannabees". (Especially when they won't/don't take their sunglasses off indoors.)
Dan
Dan;
Althought you preface this statment with a qualifier, I'd have to say that many re-enactors play an important part in helping the public understand what they are seeing. I know many warbird owners who willl stand by their aircraft and speak to the public about it's signifigance and history, but I know many more that hop out and head to the crew tent, never to be seen until it's time to fly.
I've been a pilot since 1978, and have been re-enacting since the mid-80's. Since I was a "renter", I never had the opportunity to bring an aircraft to a show. What I realized that as a member of an organization , (VAC, NWM etc.) I could do something to help at the show, even though I didn't oiwn an aircraft, by bringing some equipment and talking to the public before the show.
To be honest, there are those who wallow in the full outfit, sunglasses and hand jestures, but most are dedicated to what they are doing. As I've grown older, I no longer try to do the "pilot" thing because I'm too old for a WWII pilot. As a matter of fact, the only two licensed pilots in our group play mechanics! I believe that the rank and people portrayed should reflect the proper age of the re-enactor. Nothing like seeing a 50 year old 1st looie!
Though very involved in the air show industry, I still re-enact, and I'm even part of a WWII Field Hospital Unit where we actually do first person re-enacting complete with surgery and wounded patients.
Overall, re-enactors have their place, can fill a niche, and can be rewarding, but I'd still rather have a B-25 of my own!
Blue skies,
Jerry
Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:58 am
Yes, like I said, "probably an opinion based on ignorance" but I've seen a few of the "wallowers" as you call them and they left a bad taste in my mouth. However, that being said, perhaps a more professional demonstartion of re-enacting would change my opinion, and to be fair, I haven't seen a great deal of re-enacting one way or the other. If I was ever approached to supply a prop (excuse the pun) for some re-enacters though I would be more than happy to help.
I also don't understand the warbird owners/pilots that don't, won't, or can't sit around and answer questions about their airplanes when they are on display. I once overheard a person ask a pilot that had flown in a Stearman to a local airshow about whether or not his airplane's (not his per se, but he was the organization's pilot that day) engine had a carburetor or was fuel injected? He didn't know! As an historian I was mortified, as a mechanic I was concerned, but as a professional pilot and a check pilot I was disgusted, so I took him discreetly outside and tore a substantial strip out of him behind the hangar. I believe he knows the answer now.
Some people who own these airplanes consider themselves "temorary custodians" of a public treasure, and I don't disagree with that. While I won't be dicatated to about how I maintain or present them (if I want to paint it purple I'll paint it purple - you know the argument) I do feel a responsibility to preserve, protect and educate that outweighs the substance of the basic airplane. If re-enacters help convey that, I apologize for my remarks.
Dan
I also don't understand the warbird owners/pilots that don't, won't, or can't sit around and answer questions about their airplanes when they are on display. I once overheard a person ask a pilot that had flown in a Stearman to a local airshow about whether or not his airplane's (not his per se, but he was the organization's pilot that day) engine had a carburetor or was fuel injected? He didn't know! As an historian I was mortified, as a mechanic I was concerned, but as a professional pilot and a check pilot I was disgusted, so I took him discreetly outside and tore a substantial strip out of him behind the hangar. I believe he knows the answer now.
Some people who own these airplanes consider themselves "temorary custodians" of a public treasure, and I don't disagree with that. While I won't be dicatated to about how I maintain or present them (if I want to paint it purple I'll paint it purple - you know the argument) I do feel a responsibility to preserve, protect and educate that outweighs the substance of the basic airplane. If re-enacters help convey that, I apologize for my remarks.
Dan
Re: Walter Mitty Syndrome-What piqued your interest in Warbi
Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:09 am
bdk wrote:...Somehow I just don't see Steve Patterson imagining himself battling Migs over Korea in his Sea Fury after taking off from the HMS Ocean...
What motivates you?
I like the reference to "living history", as I definitely feel that airworthy warbirds are nothing less than time machines that transform us back to a different world. Being able to fly one for me is nothing less than magical.
As for dreaming of shooting down MiGs while flying along in the Sea Fury, well, it isn't quite like that (and even if it were do you really think I would admit it to this bunch). I have been known to hum the theme song for "Airport" while on final, though. Burt Lancaster, Dean Martin...great flick. OK, back on topic.
I was at an airshow where I was tail chasing Skip Holm flying an ME-109 Buchon. As I rolled in on him I found myself pulling just enough lead to allow my 20mm to hit him in the cockpit. There was just something about being there and seeing those crosses on the wings through the bulletproof windscreen that instantly transported me back 60 years. Much more fun than flying top cover escort for B-25 bombers (although I remember feeling a sense of being the older brother watching over younger siblings).
There were a couple of Fleet Air Arm re-enactors at OSH who wanted to take some photos with the Sea Fury. While I can't see myself ever doing this (they were melting in those wool uniforms) it does serve a purpose to entertain and educate the masses. And based on the fact that most of the airshow public think a Sea Fury is a Spitfire I suppose they need all the education we can give.
Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:03 pm
I tend to write a lot when it comes to questions like this. But laziness has the better of me at the moment. So, although today I hold many of the reasons stated above as my own, I'll sum up in one sentence the reasons for a little kid first becoming interested in things with wings.
The sights, sounds and smells... and almost being knocked on my a$$ by prop blast...
Fade to Black...
The sights, sounds and smells... and almost being knocked on my a$$ by prop blast...
Fade to Black...
Does someone remember......
Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:21 pm
Does someone remember......
The Battler Britton comic strips ?
Many moons ago..........as a kid.
You then learn afterward about the planes, the men & the sacrifices.
But as a kid. That got me hooked.
The Battler Britton comic strips ?
Many moons ago..........as a kid.
You then learn afterward about the planes, the men & the sacrifices.
But as a kid. That got me hooked.
Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:47 pm
Put me down for flying and maintaining.
I’ve always considered myself a lousy historian, inasmuch as I probably could not hold a conversation with some of the people here who really know their stuff.
EDIT to add:
One time I was talking to someone who owns a Baron about what I was working on, and he said to me “Geez, you’re really a historian!” Perhaps it was just my enthusiasm that prompted the comment.
I’ve always considered myself a lousy historian, inasmuch as I probably could not hold a conversation with some of the people here who really know their stuff.
EDIT to add:
One time I was talking to someone who owns a Baron about what I was working on, and he said to me “Geez, you’re really a historian!” Perhaps it was just my enthusiasm that prompted the comment.
Last edited by Eric Friedebach on Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:36 pm
my vote is for collecting antique aviation memorabilia. it is the cheaper alternative to maintaining a full size warbird. i'd love to have a warbird, but i'm happy because i have the next best thing, i've got countless items of historically significant aviation history. if the stuff could talk, it could all tell great stories.
Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:46 pm
Walter Mitty for me...I just want to play fighter pilot.
???
Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:32 pm
Walter Mitty for me...I just want to play fighter pilot.
Randy,
With all thosse mission markers on the side of your F-15E I can honestly
say Walter Mitty has nothing on you! You are there!!
Re: ???
Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:32 pm
Jack Cook wrote:Walter Mitty for me...I just want to play fighter pilot.
Randy,
With all thosse mission markers on the side of your F-15E I can honestly
say Walter Mitty has nothing on you! You are there!!
I was just trying to throw a little humor in there.
As far as the thread topic goes, though, the warbird thing is twofold for me;
1) Passion for the machines. I love everything aviation, but there's just something about warbirds that really get me excited and interested like no other aircraft anywhere. My experience flying WW2 airplanes is extremely limited, but I absolutely love all aspects, from just watching and listening, to getting my hands dirty working on and cleaning 'em, up to and including flying in or piloting them.
2) Keep alive the heritage. There are many aspects to this, from continuing to remind Americans the sacrifices of the warriors who have gone before them, and equally honoring those men who fought valiantly in those machines. I'm a bit of a history geek naturally, and when my interest in history combines with my passion for aviation (and throw in some of my personal patriotism and warrior streak) that combines to make warbirds an important interest and pastime.
Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:37 am
They are Kicka$$!