Berlin Airlift HF C-97
Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:54 am
Hi, What is the status of this A/C? I always love to see the C-54 at shows, but I've always wondered about the C-97. On their website it says it is airworthy, and looks great. Just wondering why it never makes an appearance. I always just presumed it was down for resto work.
Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:20 pm
Their website www.spiritoffreedom.org has as last info-
2005: CURRENT STATUS: UNDERGOING INITIAL AIRWORTHINESS INSPECTION AND CREW TRAINING!
So either the website is not uptodate or the restoration is still pending (maybe lacking funding)
Rudi
2005: CURRENT STATUS: UNDERGOING INITIAL AIRWORTHINESS INSPECTION AND CREW TRAINING!
So either the website is not uptodate or the restoration is still pending (maybe lacking funding)
Rudi
Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:37 pm
I have to assume this is one extremely expensive plane to fly...basically the costs of a B-29, give or take a little. I also assume most airshows would have a tough time affording this plane...and would probably spend their resources on a B-17.
However, it's one plane I'd love to see fly. In fact, I'd love to see a whole airshow dedicated to transport aircraft and early propliners. Granted it probably wouldn't be such a popular draw with the general public, but it would be fun to see a C-46, C-47, C-97, Connie, C-54, C-60, C-119, and others together on a ramp (and in the skies).
However, it's one plane I'd love to see fly. In fact, I'd love to see a whole airshow dedicated to transport aircraft and early propliners. Granted it probably wouldn't be such a popular draw with the general public, but it would be fun to see a C-46, C-47, C-97, Connie, C-54, C-60, C-119, and others together on a ramp (and in the skies).
Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:53 pm
I spoke with the Berlin Air Lift guys at WWII Weekend (Reading, PA). We have a bunch of C-97 parts that we were hoping that they could use, but as it turns out, they are somewhat limited on space and already have a large amount of spares. I got the impression that they were working on their airplane as much as time and money would allow (I know the feeling there). And while they said it would probably be a while before we see the ol' C-97 on tour, it'll be worth the wait.
That is one of the nicer group of folks you'll meet out on the Warbird circuit. I would encourage anyone who gets the chance to see their airplane out on the road to check them out...and throw a few bucks in their donation box.
Gary Austin
Crew Chief, B-29/B-24 Squadron
Commemorative Air Force
That is one of the nicer group of folks you'll meet out on the Warbird circuit. I would encourage anyone who gets the chance to see their airplane out on the road to check them out...and throw a few bucks in their donation box.
Gary Austin
Crew Chief, B-29/B-24 Squadron
Commemorative Air Force
Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:57 pm
retroaviation wrote:I spoke with the Berlin Air Lift guys at WWII Weekend (Reading, PA). We have a bunch of C-97 parts that we were hoping that they could use, but as it turns out, they are somewhat limited on space and already have a large amount of spares. I got the impression that they were working on their airplane as much as time and money would allow (I know the feeling there). And while they said it would probably be a while before we see the ol' C-97 on tour, it'll be worth the wait.
That is one of the nicer group of folks you'll meet out on the Warbird circuit. I would encourage anyone who gets the chance to see their airplane out on the road to check them out...and throw a few bucks in their donation box.
Gary Austin
Crew Chief, B-29/B-24 Squadron
Commemorative Air Force
Can they expect to face similar engine troubles down the line like you and your team has experienced with Fifi? I hope you don't mind this type of question, it is just that I am not familiar with the engines of the two types, but I would imagine your experiences with Fifi are being watched by all restorers and operaters of the B-29/B-50/C-97 family.
Mike
Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:11 pm
mrhenniger wrote:Can they expect to face similar engine troubles down the line like you and your team has experienced with Fifi? I hope you don't mind this type of question, it is just that I am not familiar with the engines of the two types, but I would imagine your experiences with Fifi are being watched by all restorers and operaters of the B-29/B-50/C-97 family.
Mike
I don't mind you asking at all.
Well, the C-97 uses a Pratt & Whitney R-4360. It is a very impressive engine to look at, but can also be cantakerous at times(like most very large, round engines). I doubt very seriously that they'd have the same kind of issues that we have with FIFI, as the B-29 engines (Wright R-3350's) were basically junk from the start. There was very little time for prototype engines at the Wright factory, as Boeing was ready for B-29 production and we had a war to win. So the result was a VERY problematic engine that continues to this day. Fortunately, the later 3350's pretty much had the "bugs worked out" and are much, much more reliable.
I'm not sure which dash number of the 4360 that the Berlin Air Lift guys have on their C-97, but I do believe that those engines were much less troublesome from the start, so they shouldn't be nearly as difficult to deal with as what we're dealing with here.
I hope this helps.
Gary Austin
Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:13 pm
OK. Here's whats been happening.
As has been mentioned, we have been working on the C-97 as time and money allow. Much progress has been made, but there is still a long way to go.
#1, our C-54 takes top priority, as it is the income generating part. If it needs work, (Which is constantly) it gets it. Without the "Spirit of Freedom", there will be no "Angel of Deliverance". Any of you who have taken the time to visit the "Spirit" at airshows this year, have seen the major improvements to the museum interior of the aircraft we have made this last winter. Most of the old displays were over 10 years old, so it needed our full attention.
Now, as far as the C-97 goes.....
As most of you know, we acquired C-97G 53-3816 last year for parts and engines, This yielded us 6 engines, and a slew of parts. We recently acquired a Grove IND-36 Carry Deck Crane for installing the engine in the #3 position.
Unfortunately, it needs work as well, because all we can afford is secondhand junk. (Anyone a crane dealer out there?)
We have also cquired the tailfin jack, the Power Package Sling, and other necessary items.
Additionally, we are looking for a set of "elephant ears", a prop sling for the giant 17 foot propeller.
We have been removing unnecessary equipment as well. This is in order to simplify the operation, and lighten the airplane up.
The lining has been removed, skin and structure inspected and we are negotiating for a new liner as we speak.
Maintenance and crew training is ongoing as well.
The next item to be addressed on the aircraft is the replacement of all hoses on the engines, so we can start out with new fresh ones and eliminate a possible safety issue.
As far as the reliability of the R-4360 goes...
We have the R-4360-59B. It is the latest of the Wasp Majors and most of the bugs have been worked out in its design. However, there are many USAF guys who will tell you nightmare stories.
First, about constantly fouling the plugs. That was using 115/130 fuel. With 100LL, that is not an issue. Secondly, as light as we intend to operate this and keeping the climbing to a minimum, we expect to get a lot of life out of these engines. The first R-2000 we changed on our C-54 had over 1700 hours on it, and we changed it as a precaution. So, we believe that by operating it conservatively, while keeping an eye on Cylinder head temps, will keep these engines healthy for a long time.
Remember, the USAF operated these overloaded, climbed at Military power for long durations in order to get as high as possible for refueling purposes. Imagine how long your automobile will last if you ran around with your foot on the floor all the time. Notwithstanding the harsh treatment in military operations, they still didnt retire the C-97 until 1977, even though the KC-135 had been around for over 20 years.
Simply put, the C-54 is our Mercury Program. We barely got going getting a man in orbit with it when we had no choice but to buy what we felt was the last Saturn V (C-97) available. We did, and our whole operation has to be changed to fit it, even though the principles are the same. Meanwhile, we have to keep putting the Mercury in the air, because thats what earns the funding to pursue the Apollo Program (C-97).
So, the website is still correct, we are still undergoing our initial inspection and such, but it just takes time.
Please visit our website at www.spiritoffreedom.org. Become a member of our National Support Group and help keep these birds where they belong, in the air. (Also check out our news section, much of the same info I just wrote can be found there.)
Kevin
As has been mentioned, we have been working on the C-97 as time and money allow. Much progress has been made, but there is still a long way to go.
#1, our C-54 takes top priority, as it is the income generating part. If it needs work, (Which is constantly) it gets it. Without the "Spirit of Freedom", there will be no "Angel of Deliverance". Any of you who have taken the time to visit the "Spirit" at airshows this year, have seen the major improvements to the museum interior of the aircraft we have made this last winter. Most of the old displays were over 10 years old, so it needed our full attention.
Now, as far as the C-97 goes.....
As most of you know, we acquired C-97G 53-3816 last year for parts and engines, This yielded us 6 engines, and a slew of parts. We recently acquired a Grove IND-36 Carry Deck Crane for installing the engine in the #3 position.
Unfortunately, it needs work as well, because all we can afford is secondhand junk. (Anyone a crane dealer out there?)
We have also cquired the tailfin jack, the Power Package Sling, and other necessary items.
Additionally, we are looking for a set of "elephant ears", a prop sling for the giant 17 foot propeller.
We have been removing unnecessary equipment as well. This is in order to simplify the operation, and lighten the airplane up.
The lining has been removed, skin and structure inspected and we are negotiating for a new liner as we speak.
Maintenance and crew training is ongoing as well.
The next item to be addressed on the aircraft is the replacement of all hoses on the engines, so we can start out with new fresh ones and eliminate a possible safety issue.
As far as the reliability of the R-4360 goes...
We have the R-4360-59B. It is the latest of the Wasp Majors and most of the bugs have been worked out in its design. However, there are many USAF guys who will tell you nightmare stories.
First, about constantly fouling the plugs. That was using 115/130 fuel. With 100LL, that is not an issue. Secondly, as light as we intend to operate this and keeping the climbing to a minimum, we expect to get a lot of life out of these engines. The first R-2000 we changed on our C-54 had over 1700 hours on it, and we changed it as a precaution. So, we believe that by operating it conservatively, while keeping an eye on Cylinder head temps, will keep these engines healthy for a long time.
Remember, the USAF operated these overloaded, climbed at Military power for long durations in order to get as high as possible for refueling purposes. Imagine how long your automobile will last if you ran around with your foot on the floor all the time. Notwithstanding the harsh treatment in military operations, they still didnt retire the C-97 until 1977, even though the KC-135 had been around for over 20 years.
Simply put, the C-54 is our Mercury Program. We barely got going getting a man in orbit with it when we had no choice but to buy what we felt was the last Saturn V (C-97) available. We did, and our whole operation has to be changed to fit it, even though the principles are the same. Meanwhile, we have to keep putting the Mercury in the air, because thats what earns the funding to pursue the Apollo Program (C-97).
So, the website is still correct, we are still undergoing our initial inspection and such, but it just takes time.
Please visit our website at www.spiritoffreedom.org. Become a member of our National Support Group and help keep these birds where they belong, in the air. (Also check out our news section, much of the same info I just wrote can be found there.)
Kevin
Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:13 pm
I know money it tight but I bet Hawkins and Powers would have everything you need at the upcoming auction. See if you could talk some of the scrappers out of some stuff since I'm sure there will be many there.
Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:13 pm
I know money it tight but I bet Hawkins and Powers would have everything you need at the upcoming auction. See if you could talk some of the scrappers out of some stuff since I'm sure there will be many there.
Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:33 pm
Airlift48 wrote:Simply put, the C-54 is our Mercury Program. We barely got going getting a man in orbit with it when we had no choice but to buy what we felt was the last Saturn V (C-97) available. We did, and our whole operation has to be changed to fit it, even though the principles are the same. Meanwhile, we have to keep putting the Mercury in the air, because thats what earns the funding to pursue the Apollo Program (C-97).
What's your Gemini program then? Gemini was always my favorite of the NASA programs.
The C-54 is beautiful. I made sure to stick around long enough at Thunder Over Michigan so I could watch it taxi out and take off.
Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:29 am
Thanks everyone, that is exactly the info I was looking for.
Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:48 am
Believeme when I tell you that we are acutely aware of the activities upcoming at Greybull.
KK
KK
Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:17 am
I think the main reason for these engines to fail so easily. Is the way they where overhauled. And who was doing the work. To work on such mechanically complex items it helps if its in your blood so to say. And not just a job, or something the military forced you into. How many of the youngsters (at the time) would have rather been at the pub, or with his girl. Rather than twisting a wrench, and checking clearances?
I have seen stories of these engines failing right after installation.
There are alot of very critical clearances and special procedures involved in assembling one of those engines. There are alot of parts, and they all have to be installed the right way as well as all fasteners tightened properly and secured. All it takes is one small mistake, and its bye bye engine.
I have seen stories of these engines failing right after installation.
There are alot of very critical clearances and special procedures involved in assembling one of those engines. There are alot of parts, and they all have to be installed the right way as well as all fasteners tightened properly and secured. All it takes is one small mistake, and its bye bye engine.
Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:32 am
The C-54 is here in Elizabeth City, waiting for the annual First Flight Celebration on the 17th. Always nice to have it here on our ramp. 