Mystery B-24 w/cool Tail Turret Art
Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:55 pm
I just acquired this original photo on ebay the other day and was wondering if anybody could shed some light as to the identification of the B-24.
The seller claims it was part of the "Black Sunday" raid on Ploesti in 1943 and that the aircraft was shot down during the raid. Given the name painted on the turret "Termite's Sting", one would presume that the plane name would be called "Termite". I did a bit of searching online and found that the 450th B.G., 722ND Squadron had two B-24's named "Termite Chaser I" & "Termite Chaser II". The 44th B.G. also had one named "Turnip Termite".
If anyone out there can help me I.D. which plane this is I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance for your help!
John
The seller claims it was part of the "Black Sunday" raid on Ploesti in 1943 and that the aircraft was shot down during the raid. Given the name painted on the turret "Termite's Sting", one would presume that the plane name would be called "Termite". I did a bit of searching online and found that the 450th B.G., 722ND Squadron had two B-24's named "Termite Chaser I" & "Termite Chaser II". The 44th B.G. also had one named "Turnip Termite".
If anyone out there can help me I.D. which plane this is I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance for your help!
John
Awesome Photo!
Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:29 pm
And of my turret! That is definitely an earlier A-6 by the sheet metal and access points, most of which were probably on B24D's. If those aircraft were D models, I'd say you have your ID.
Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:09 pm
According to some of the "experts" on the Army Air Forces Forum this picture is likely that of 1st Lt. Henry Lasco's "Sad Sack II" (41-24153) which was shot down during the Black Sunday Raid on Ploesti, August 1, 1943.
"Sad Sack II" was shot down and belly landed with 5 crew members killed. The tail gunner, Sgt. Thomas Wood, was killed by ground fire before the crash. What's interesting about this photo is the fact that you can see that the plane has crashed and that the turret front glass is missing. The photo was probably taken by a German soldier shortly after the crash.
John
"Sad Sack II" was shot down and belly landed with 5 crew members killed. The tail gunner, Sgt. Thomas Wood, was killed by ground fire before the crash. What's interesting about this photo is the fact that you can see that the plane has crashed and that the turret front glass is missing. The photo was probably taken by a German soldier shortly after the crash.
John
Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:03 am
Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:41 am
Thanks Steve...I always suspected the image I had was made by a german soldier shortly after the B-24 was shot down. I just couldn't prove which bird it was. Thanks for finally putting this mystery to rest!
John
John
Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:55 am
That seems to have been a pretty popular name. Jack Cook posted a picture recently of a downed P-47 on the Normandy beach that was named Turnip Termite as well.
Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:05 pm
John,
The photos Steve found got me thinking that the soldiers shown may be
Romanian, not German, so I started in that direction.
While the soldiers may indeed be German I found this wonderful
thread on a Romanian webpage with more info and photos. There is
even a photo of a German on the tail of a B-24 with a camera who could
have taken your original photo.
Click Here
I also found this about the aircraft which is hard to believe after seeing
the photos...
B-24D-25-CO 'Brewery Wagon'
Unit: ex 376th BG, 515th BS, USAAF
Serial: 41-24294
This airplane was shot down over Ploesti on 1st August 1943. 2 KIA, 8
POW. It was overhauled and impressed by Romanians. The machine
was left its original scheme, except for altered national markings and
the Axis quick recognition symbols. Together with other Rumanians Liberators
(at least two, including ex 41-23782) it was used for fighter training.
Bill
The photos Steve found got me thinking that the soldiers shown may be
Romanian, not German, so I started in that direction.
While the soldiers may indeed be German I found this wonderful
thread on a Romanian webpage with more info and photos. There is
even a photo of a German on the tail of a B-24 with a camera who could
have taken your original photo.
Click Here
I also found this about the aircraft which is hard to believe after seeing
the photos...
B-24D-25-CO 'Brewery Wagon'
Unit: ex 376th BG, 515th BS, USAAF
Serial: 41-24294
This airplane was shot down over Ploesti on 1st August 1943. 2 KIA, 8
POW. It was overhauled and impressed by Romanians. The machine
was left its original scheme, except for altered national markings and
the Axis quick recognition symbols. Together with other Rumanians Liberators
(at least two, including ex 41-23782) it was used for fighter training.
Bill
Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:09 pm
Bill,
Thanks for the additional info...I'm amazed they were able to salvage the plane given the condition of it after the belly landing.
John
Thanks for the additional info...I'm amazed they were able to salvage the plane given the condition of it after the belly landing.
John
Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:39 pm
These pictures make me wonder how much intelligence the Axis would
have obtained from a shoot down like this. From the pictures it looks like a village tailgate party without the beer and bar-b-que. I suppose the Norden Bombsight would have been the immediate concern. This was a low level mission similar to the Dolittle raid, did they even have the bombsight onboard opting for an aiming device like Dolittle?
have obtained from a shoot down like this. From the pictures it looks like a village tailgate party without the beer and bar-b-que. I suppose the Norden Bombsight would have been the immediate concern. This was a low level mission similar to the Dolittle raid, did they even have the bombsight onboard opting for an aiming device like Dolittle?
Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:44 pm
Tom Crawford wrote:These pictures make me wonder how much intelligence the Axis would
have obtained from a shoot down like this. From the pictures it looks like a village tailgate party without the beer and bar-b-que. I suppose the Norden Bombsight would have been the immediate concern. This was a low level mission similar to the Dolittle raid, did they even have the bombsight onboard opting for an aiming device like Dolittle?
Good question Tom...one would guess that given the low level bombing done on "Black Sunday" they might have taken the Norden bombsights out. These were also early model B-24's (I think B-24D's) so they might've still had the earlier Sperry bombsights.
John
Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:36 pm
Maybe they parted it out to get another flying? I can't imagine they got this one back into the air in a timeframe to be of any use. Maybe there is some confusion brought about from the original translation?jpeters wrote:Thanks for the additional info...I'm amazed they were able to salvage the plane given the condition of it after the belly landing.
Brewery wagon
Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:00 pm
Nice pics and I agree with bdk on the rebuild to flight.Might have used the wing but the fuselage was busted all to heck.
Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:32 pm
I have been digging through my collection of Ploesti and B-24 books today.
Tom/John
From “Into the Guns of Ploesti”, the author states the bombsights were
removed for the low level mission.
bdk/hte
Yes, I found it hard to believe seeing the photos that they got it to fly
also. On that Romanian website you will notice there was some confusion
if the pictures were of 2 different a/c both shot down on the same raid.
These are the records of the 2 a/c in question per Mr. Baugher. It shows
the other a/c being rebuilt. Maybe the confusion lies here. Maybe.
24294 (376th BG, 515th BS, *Brewery Wagon*) shot down over Ploesti
Aug 1, 1943. 2 KIA, 8 POW. MACR 154
23782 (98th BG, 415th BS, "Boiler Maker II") lost on Ploesti
raid, Rumania, Aug 1, 1943. MACR 177. 10 POW. Repaired
and flown by Rumanian AF. Rebuilt using a wing from 42-40265.
But…
From the Squadron/Signal B-24 publication I do find this.
and from the web I find this on Brewery Wagon.
Artist: © Jacek R.Jackiewicz
So you decide, after all these years, proof either way may be real difficult.
More importantly, I did learn some history, this a/c became the
lead a/c for the raid after the assigned navigation ship crashed into the sea.
The brass hats in formation behind doubted the young navigator's correct
course and turned too early leaving Brewery Wagon to be on it's own
over the target when it was hit. Sadly the navigator and one other of
the crew were KIA.
Bill
Tom/John
From “Into the Guns of Ploesti”, the author states the bombsights were
removed for the low level mission.
bdk/hte
Yes, I found it hard to believe seeing the photos that they got it to fly
also. On that Romanian website you will notice there was some confusion
if the pictures were of 2 different a/c both shot down on the same raid.
These are the records of the 2 a/c in question per Mr. Baugher. It shows
the other a/c being rebuilt. Maybe the confusion lies here. Maybe.
24294 (376th BG, 515th BS, *Brewery Wagon*) shot down over Ploesti
Aug 1, 1943. 2 KIA, 8 POW. MACR 154
23782 (98th BG, 415th BS, "Boiler Maker II") lost on Ploesti
raid, Rumania, Aug 1, 1943. MACR 177. 10 POW. Repaired
and flown by Rumanian AF. Rebuilt using a wing from 42-40265.
But…
From the Squadron/Signal B-24 publication I do find this.
and from the web I find this on Brewery Wagon.
Artist: © Jacek R.Jackiewicz
So you decide, after all these years, proof either way may be real difficult.
More importantly, I did learn some history, this a/c became the
lead a/c for the raid after the assigned navigation ship crashed into the sea.
The brass hats in formation behind doubted the young navigator's correct
course and turned too early leaving Brewery Wagon to be on it's own
over the target when it was hit. Sadly the navigator and one other of
the crew were KIA.
Bill
Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:51 am
Photos of Boilermaker II being repaired and after repair by the Romanians in Michael Hill's book "Black Sunday". Gotta believe Brewery Wagon is being mixed up with Boilermaker II which was in much better shape from the crash photos
Dan
Dan
Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:35 pm
Today I found the same b/w picture as above which the Signal book says is
Brewery Wagon listed as Boiler Maker II... HERE
This goes along with Dan's info.
I think a lot of the confusion can be blamed on the fact that 23 days
after the Ploesti raid Russia invaded and Romania switched sides
to fight against the Germans. To make it even more confusing I found
this
B-24D-5-CO 'Boiler Maker II'
Unit: ex 415th BS, 98th BG, USAAF
Serial: 41-23782
B-24 shot down 1 August 1944, repaired and repainted by the Royal
Romanian Air Force .
On 26 August 1944 3 German Bf.109G attacked the Liberator and put it
on flames.
I wonder if the paint was even dry.
Bill
Sorry if I strayed a little from the original topic.
Brewery Wagon listed as Boiler Maker II... HERE
This goes along with Dan's info.
I think a lot of the confusion can be blamed on the fact that 23 days
after the Ploesti raid Russia invaded and Romania switched sides
to fight against the Germans. To make it even more confusing I found
this
B-24D-5-CO 'Boiler Maker II'
Unit: ex 415th BS, 98th BG, USAAF
Serial: 41-23782
B-24 shot down 1 August 1944, repaired and repainted by the Royal
Romanian Air Force .
On 26 August 1944 3 German Bf.109G attacked the Liberator and put it
on flames.
I wonder if the paint was even dry.
Bill
Sorry if I strayed a little from the original topic.