b-2 stealth crash on guam, who's going to take the fall??

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:19 pm

thank god there were no injuries / fatalities in the b-2 crash at guam from a few days ago, but undoubtly a big magnifying glass will be used by the air force in it's investigation. you've got to admit, this is an expensive military loss to tax payers & the usaf at a billion plus $$$$$ a copy, now only 20 left in ithe inventory. after review boards convene who's going to get thumped on the noggin?? the crew?, mechanics / ground crews?? the manufacturor?? 1 of the many component subcontractors from the computer chips to the chemical toilet maker?? i'm for the b-2, but naturally not the loss, nor what it's going to cost the overburdened tax paper to shell out the bucks for the investigation that will probably drag into the next year. i hope they do it expeditiously.

n5151ts · **Posted:** Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:24 pm

and YOU WON! woo hoo 20.00 a day for the next 200 years

T2 Ernie · **Posted:** Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:46 pm

tom d. friedman wrote:

I'm for the b-2, but naturally not the loss, nor what it's going to cost the overburdened tax paper to shell out the bucks for the investigation that will probably drag into the next year. i hope they do it expeditiously.

Actually, the investigation will be wrapped up rather quickly. Unlike a civilian investigation, the military Safety Investigation Board & Accident Investigation Board will wrap up within 30-90 days...

The Safety board has 30 days from the date of the crash to wrap it up. They're allowed to ask for an extension, and they do for complex ones, but for the most part, they have a great deal of resources at their disposal. The Safety board results will not be released to the public though.

The Accident board is publicly releasable & also has 30 days to wrap up its investigation, but the start date is variable & could start as late as the end of the safety board...

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

It might not be anybody's fault. Have you thought about the possibility that the bomber had a massive bird strike in which it FOD'ed out all or most of the engines? Don't think it's possible, well it is. There have been 4 engine airplanes brought down by birds before.

Yes, it was expensive, for sure, but it might not have been an avoidable crash. Sometimes, luck is just not on your side. Knowing the extremely high standards for pilots and support personnel that they hire for that unit, I would be absolutely shocked if it was pilot error. They take only the top of the top of the heap for members of the 509th.

n5151ts · **Posted:** Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:53 pm

warbird1 wrote:

It might not be anybody's fault. Have you thought about the possibility that the bomber had a massive bird strike in which it FOD'ed out all or most of the engines? Don't think it's possible, well it is. There have been 4 engine airplanes brought down by birds before.

Yes, it was expensive, for sure, but it might not have been an avoidable crash. Sometimes, luck is just not on your side. Knowing the extremely high standards for pilots and support personnel that they hire for that unit, I would be absolutely shocked if it was pilot error. They take only the top of the top of the heap for members of the 509th.

T2 Ernie · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:48 am

warbird1 wrote:

Knowing the extremely high standards for pilots and support personnel that they hire for that unit, I would be absolutely shocked if it was pilot error. They take only the top of the top of the heap for members of the 509th.

Good pilots and good maintainers make mistakes too...

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of mishaps are human error...

You're right about the birds though...first thing I thought of.

fotobass · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:07 am

warbird1 wrote:

They take only the top of the top of the heap for members of the 509th.

Into the air the secret rose
Where they´re going, nobody knows
Tomorrow they´ll return again
But we´ll never know where they´ve been.
Don´t ask us about results or such
Unless you want to get in Dutch.
But take it from one who is sure of the score,
the 509th is winning the war.

When the other Groups are ready to go
We have a program of the whole damned show
And when Halsey´s 5th shells Nippon´s shore
Why, shucks, we hear about it the day before.
And MacArthur and Doolittle give out in advance
But with this new bunch we haven´t a chance
We should have been home a month or more
For the 509th is winning the war

Jet Mech · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:02 am

I know the cost of one B-2 is very very high, due to the technology used and mission it had, but its a low cost compared to what was not lost, and that was both aircrew made it out alive.

At least they can tell what happened.

Sad to say they will not make a replacement and now there are only 20 left.

Fouga23 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:40 am

warbird1 wrote:

It might not be anybody's fault. Have you thought about the possibility that the bomber had a massive bird strike in which it FOD'ed out all or most of the engines? Don't think it's possible, well it is. There have been 4 engine airplanes brought down by birds before.

We lost a C-130 that way a few years ago. All engines FOD'ed out on final due to bird strikes. Unfortunately many lost their lives.

Jet Mech · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:45 am

USAF has lost only one AWACS, in Alaska, when birds took out an engine on TO. Critical flight with loss of an engine and the AC didn't recover. All soles on board were lost.

Just because you have more than one turning or burning, don't mean you can survive a massive bird strike. When they get that big, more than an engine is often damaged.

I don't know what the bird hazards in Guam are like, but it could happen anywhere there are enough flying around.

corsairdude · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:38 pm

If the birds problem in Guam is like the one they used to have at Midway, then It is a problem!!!!

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:44 pm

Some years back flock of birds knocked down a bomber over southern Colorado, I think it was a B-1, might have also been a B-52?A big duck or goose is like a giant piece of flak.

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:55 pm

A couple of B-1s have been brought down over the years during low-level training by large birds. Because of this, they stopped low-level training with IPs in the jumpseat because there wasn't time for the ones that were in the planes to bail out and sadly 4 very experienced IPs were killed.

T2 Ernie · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:46 pm

An MC-130H taking off at max gross weight in the Phillipines a few summers ago took 362 separate (counted) birdstrikes when a flock of small birds were flushed off the end of the runway on takeoff.

One engine flamed out & the other decayed to about 70% & overtemped - of course, the crew let that one run as they dumped fuel & limped along in ground effect. The engine eventually recovered to 100%.

On the C-130, the engine inlet is relatively small - on the order of 18" x 18" and there's a one foot slab of metal going by the front of it about 70 times each second, so if it can get into the very rugged compressor/turbine of the T56, it's usually in small enough pieces for it to spit out... :lol:

T33driver · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:55 pm

One of my old squadron's C-130s took a bald eagle hit on a low-level in the leading edge of the wing which caused a bleed air leak, throttle cable damage that caused one engine to run away and nearly a second engine on the same side. The crew acted quickly and shut down the runaway engine with the fire handle and secured the bleed air leak which could have melted the wing off. Bottom line is a single birdstrike in the right place can be the golden BB.

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b-2 stealth crash on guam, who's going to take the fall??

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