Warbird Information Exchange

Hi all.

Sadly I have to submit a negative report about a group of people working in the warbird industry. Obviously I need to be discreet to avoid any backlash but I feel so strongly about this that I need to warn others.

Sometime ago while I was considering which project type I should go for, either a P-40 or P-39, I engaged some preliminary work to be done by a Melbourne based business that claimed it could produce, to a high standard, P-40 warbird components at a very reasonable rate. They advertised widely and especially on Barnstormers. I do not mean to associate Barnstormers with this and shall be contacting them also and placing a warning with them too.

After I made contact and asked all the appropriate questions I left a deposit for the work to be performed. After numerous delays and numerous excuses I was given the impression the work had been completed or would be completed by the time I travelled from my home state to Melbourne (a distance of about 650km's one way). However, on arriving I was given all sorts of excuses but the end result was the product was not ready and, after some further checking, I discovered it had not even been started.

On meeting with the acclaimed builder of this warbird part, I was assured my deposit would be returned in a timely manner. Guess what!.....no money, no contact and no product. I accept that I am partially repsonsible but I would say in my defence that such fraudsters need to be isolated and removed from the industry. If we can not operate openly and honestly with each other then we are in trouble as a serious heritage group.

While I am not out of pocket a lot, I feel that some of our overseas members could also fall foul to this group and I offer this as a warning to make all the necessary checks and only pay on completion of work. If the time frame runs well over completion date, pull out of the deal unless and good reason, that can be confirmed via a third and independant party, is given.

I hate to be so negative, especially about an Australian based group, but as I say, I feel so strongly about it that I will be following this message up with other inquiries with other people.

All the best

Digger

So....who is it?

Digger,

I am not involved in the activities you mention but am from Melbourne and while agreeing with your need to warn people about the bad experience you have had with someone, I wonder if the anonomous aspect of it simply brings a number of restoration houses into suspicion and subject to whisper and rumour?, without exposing the true source of your problem?

I looked on Barnstormers after your posting and am still unsure who you are referring too?

I am aware of at least 4 different restorers of P40's/components in the Melbourne/Victoria area, I am not sure all are offering to manufacture parts for others or simply building parts for themselves, and obviously at least 3 of them are not the group you have dealt with?

I realise you do not wish to create a legal risk to yourself in naming the group involved, and provided your post primarily as a warning to others, and in any case providers of poor service, quality and price will always be found out in the longer term, but hopefully without damaging other providers who are bonefide businesses offering commercial service?

I am not sure how you can really resolve the uncertainty? for those who read here, and as I am not in the market for such P40 services it doesnt concern me greatly myself, but perhaps you can clear the air for others by advising who it "isnt" as a way of removing doubt on other Melbourne/Victorian P40 rebuilders/ service providers?? and for their own customers?


just a thought?

regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

It'is expensive enough building these things 1.25mil for a P-40 and clocer to 2.0mil for a P-39 without the hasseles.

Hi

yes I gave the message some thought and figured someone would raise this issue. You are right in saying I need to be careful but at the same time I certainly do not wish to harm the business and or reputation of the other groups located in Melbourne. I think the emphasis on Melbourne clearly means I am not referring to the Wangarratta facility, which I might add I did visit and inspect recently and it gets the thumbs up from what I could see. All I could add would be to say this particular person, operates from a historically significant Australian Aviation site just outside of Melbourne and if you were to travel west towards Geelong to may see the signs to a very popular Museum, which is not the centre of my complaint.

At the time of writing my initial message and also at the time of writing this I had not received anything from this person, but thats not to say I won't and if I do my complaint is still based upon the time taken, the lack of professionalism and the apparent disregard for others committments and timeframes. I don't agree with the $1.5 million comment but will leave that alone, my issue is with the topics I have just reiterated.

If anyone wants further clarification I can only suggest to keep the questions coming and I shall try my best to answer them.

hope this helps

Digger

Adelaide's about 650kms from Melbourne, what are the plans for this P40?

How do we know you arn't some employee that screwed something up and you were fired? Without naming names your post has very little credit and nobody can figure out who you are bad mouthing anyway. If I had someone ripping me off I would have no problem pointing a finger. This whole thread should be deleted.

Hi All

My deposit was delivered today via normal post, 5 days past the agreed end date but as I have previously mentioned this was just one part of this whole episode. To answer some of the questions I can say the following:

I have it on good authority that overseas buyers have also been delayed and generally stuffed around. As for not naming them, the name is billy not silly!...of course I have to be delicate about this Mr BW, I have to pay close attention to AUSTRALIAN LAWS!

If you check out my previous posts you'll see I am no where near Melbourne and as I have stated I travelled from Adelaide?????, never been employed in that area of work but I do admire those craftsmen (and women) who can legitimately produce the goods.

Yes this thread can be deleted and forgotten, until something nasty happens which will bring the warbird fraternity into close examination by authorities here in Australia and possibly overseas, why overseas? because as I said, I believe overseas buyers have had similar troubles. Not that the warbird group couldn't withstand such an examination in general terms, but as I have pointed out, all I am trying to do is to say, "be careful".

And the P-40 project Croweater is..........well you'll just have to wait and see..................


Digger

Tough place to be digger, trying to give a heads-up to friends and avoid
slander issues at the same time....dancing on a razor blade. Glad you
finally recovered your deposit....

_________________
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DBF

Thanks

yes, dancing on razor blades is a good way of putting it. But I appreciate your positive interpretation on what I am trying to do.

This forum has had som uch time taken up with issues of quality work, who to trust, who can't do the work properly etc etc. My motivation here is to push the safety of others issue and if that means phone calls are made to manufacturers of parts etc to get reassurance and confirmation on timeframes and quality etc then I think that is a very small price to pay.

I knew it would upset some but I figured those who are professional enough will see the good instead of the bad.

At least I have tried.

Digger

It is not slander if it is indeed the truth>>> Veiled statements are very un-Australian...

Its kind of like you want to say something bad about someone but you really don't have the ammo to do. This leads me to belive your a Scorned employee, competitior wanting to score points, or someone who thinks aircraft parts should be constructed on a schedule like a backyard shed. Some aircraft projects take years to reconstruct. I know! I have spent all day just constructing a die just to make a part. Supervisors would ask me when the parts I would make would be done. Because all of the variables in making custom parts I'd tell them "When there done!" and leave it to that.

Its kind of like you want to say something bad about someone but you really don't have the ammo to do. This leads me to belive your a Scorned employee, competitior wanting to score points, or someone who thinks aircraft parts should be constructed on a schedule like a backyard shed. Some aircraft projects take years to reconstruct. I know! I have spent all day just constructing a die just to make a part. Supervisors would ask me when the parts I would make would be done. Because all of the variables in making custom parts I'd tell them "When there done!" and leave it to that.

Broken-Wrench... you couldn't be more wrong. I do agree that it takes a great deal of time, and there are many uncertainties with production schedules with regards to vintage aircraft parts.

However, a professional operation doesn't mess a customer around by telling them the work is done, and then, after you've travelled 400 miles to inspect the work suddenly tell you it hasn't even been started on yet. That is not only unprofessional, it is also totally disrespectful, and could easily be construed as being far worse (had the deposit not been returned). Standards must be maintained if safety is to be upheld. Sure, it might take a long time to get parts made.... anyone can understand that, but when a production schedule is agreed upon, it should be adhered to. If a shop can't give a reasonably good estimate about the time it will take to get a part made, then perhaps they are not professional enough to be allowed to do it. I certainly wouldn't give my business to someone like that.... and a shop like that would not likely stay in business for long.

I think Digger should have mentioned the name of the shop. It is important to get the word out when such things occur. I understand the problems of libel... they are very similar in England too. However, all you have to say is "I had this problem... has anyone else experienced this?" That can hardly be libel if it actually happened. However, if they decide to sue you, no matter how innocent you are, then you do have the problem, and expense, of hiring a lawyer, so I can see your reticence. Still, surely the losing party would be liable for restitution of legal fees in such a case, but then again, perhaps that's too great a risk for the average Joe to take.

In any event, I believe Digger, and this is the sort of thing which should absolutely be discussed. If a company can't produce something on time, and isn't good enough/honest enough to fess up (before being asked) and work out a different delivery schedule in a timely manner, then they don't deserve to be in business, period, no matter what business they are in!

Cheers,
Richard

Me Wrong? Never! The only thing the shop should have done is gave a reasonable completion date. They way I figure it as times 3. However longs it takes time 3 for screw ups and ect. Some customers push maintenance for schedules more for the liking of the customer than maintenace can actually produce. Some mechanics can't say no. I have never had that problem. I know guys that build RVs and customer push them for completion. It usally end up with the mechanic telling them to come get their plane. The shop didn't make it and they gave his money back. I see no fraud.