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 Post subject: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:45 pm 
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I thought this needed its own thread separate from "First Venture into Wreckchasing".

The quick backstory: I had the site of a Capital Airlines DC-3 crash in Clarksburg, MD registered with the Maryland Historic Trust as a Historical Archaeological Site. The MHT informed me that this was the fourth such crash site to be registered as a Historic Site in Maryland, but the first on dry land. I asked about the other three sites and this is what I was told:

The one in Talbot County is described as follows:

Wreck of US Navy PBM-3 Martin Mariner patrol bomber (seaplane), Bureau of Aeronautics number 6672, crashed on 2 January 1944 during training flight. No fatalities. Top of fuselage has been cut open, perhaps by Navy to recover radar and radios. Tail is broken off. Port wing is broken off and lies alongside. Port wing stub rises to within 7 feet of water surface. Depth approximately 30 feet alongside fuselage. Both engines missing. Site was surveyed and reported to MHT and USN in October 2000.

One of the two in St. Mary's County:

Aluminum structure, appears to be the elevator, horizontal stabilizer, and perhaps other components of an aircraft empennage. The exact nature and extent of the structure have not been determined.
Because the tip of the elevator wraps around the outboard tip of the horizontal stabilizer, it is possible the aircraft is a Navy AD "Skyraider" (later called an A-1) or an OS2U "Kingfisher." Those were the only, or at least the most common, types of mid-20th century US Navy aircraft with that configuration.

...and the third is quite interesting:

All-metal, low-wing, single-seat aircraft with bubble canopy, left wingtip to fuselage side 15 feet, fuselage 2' 6" wide, right wing broken, estimated wingspan 32' 6", rounded wingtip, vertical stabilizer not seen, engine and propeller missing. Possible military. Found via sidescan sonar. Site dived on 9/6/2010 by Institute of Maritime History members Dan Lynberg, Mike Nowotny, Dawn Cheshaek, and David Howe. As the plane's engine was removed, it clearly did not reach this point in the bay under its own power. Howe muses that perhaps it was a fire-fighting practice hulk at NAS Pax River and was dumped into the bay to clean up the grounds.

There weren't too many low wing Navy fighters with a bubble canopy and the measurements would point to the XFL-1. I sent off an e-mail to the Institute of Maritime History and David Howe was kind enough to respond:

Thank you your inquiry. Our reconnaissance projects in Maryland are conducted for the Maryland Historical Trust, and we are not free to discuss them in any detail without permission from the Trust. I asked Dr Langley whether I may answer your questions and provide any more information than was on the site report, but she was out of the office today and was unable to respond. I hope to hear from her tomorrow.

That said, two points: First, you may very well be correct. Wikipdia says the wingspan of a P-39G was 34 feet, or 35 feet for the XFL. Those numbers, and the fuselage width estimated from drawings of the P-39, are very close to what we saw on a short dive on the site. The amidships engine position in the P-39 types could also explain why we found no engine in the nose. We did not open any part of the fuselage to look inside. If the site is indeed the XLF, I would not be surprised to find the engine is gone. We also did not see a dorsal air scoop aft of the cockpit, but we easily could have missed that.

Second, we did not take any photographs. The site is murky, and the current was kicking uo the mud, so photography was problematic. The sidescan sonar images are poor, but just adequate to see the general shape of an aircraft.

If Dr Langley wants us to go back for pictures, more accurate measurements, or a peek inside the structure, we will -- but probably not this year. Our schedule for 2014 is already set, and the year is booked solid with work in the potomac and Florida.


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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:59 pm 
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I, along with a bunch of others thought the XFL-1 was buried along with at least one AR-234 as part of a landfill/breakwater at Annacostia. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:23 pm 
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The Inspector wrote:
I, along with a bunch of others thought the XFL-1 was buried along with at least one AR-234 as part of a landfill/breakwater at Annacostia. :?


You mean Patuxent River NAS?

NAS Anacostia and Bolling AFB were both closed to fixed wing traffic in 1962 due to conflicts with National Airport. It does remain as the home of Marine One.

You may be right about the breakwater -- but how many other planes fit the "bubble canopy, low wing monoplane with an approximate 32 - 35 foot wingspan"? There's something definitely at the bottom of the Chesapeake off of NAS Patuxent that seems to be a match. It would be interesting to find out the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:25 pm 
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Here's a 1976 photo of the XFL-1 wreck off Pax River, found on this site: http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/air ... onita.html
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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:46 am 
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SaxMan wrote:
The Inspector wrote:
I, along with a bunch of others thought the XFL-1 was buried along with at least one AR-234 as part of a landfill/breakwater at Annacostia. :?


You mean Patuxent River NAS?

NAS Anacostia and Bolling AFB were both closed to fixed wing traffic in 1962 due to conflicts with National Airport. It does remain as the home of Marine One.

You may be right about the breakwater -- but how many other planes fit the "bubble canopy, low wing monoplane with an approximate 32 - 35 foot wingspan"? There's something definitely at the bottom of the Chesapeake off of NAS Patuxent that seems to be a match. It would be interesting to find out the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:14 am 
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Here is a great thread on the search for the Airabonita and Arado's at Pax River.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50174&p=502591&hilit=Arado+234#p502591

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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:37 am 
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mike furline wrote:
SaxMan wrote:
The Inspector wrote:
I, along with a bunch of others thought the XFL-1 was buried along with at least one AR-234 as part of a landfill/breakwater at Annacostia. :?


You mean Patuxent River NAS?

NAS Anacostia and Bolling AFB were both closed to fixed wing traffic in 1962 due to conflicts with National Airport. It does remain as the home of Marine One.

You may be right about the breakwater -- but how many other planes fit the "bubble canopy, low wing monoplane with an approximate 32 - 35 foot wingspan"? There's something definitely at the bottom of the Chesapeake off of NAS Patuxent that seems to be a match. It would be interesting to find out the answer.

CURTISS SC-1 SEAHAWK?

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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:53 am 
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[/quote]

You may be right about the breakwater -- but how many other planes fit the "bubble canopy, low wing monoplane with an approximate 32 - 35 foot wingspan"? [/quote]

Perhaps the "bubble" canopy in the first enty of this thread is a rather generic term, does not seem like a precise description and was perhaps based on sonar image and a very brief dive. Perhaps more like a raised canopy, like a P-39. Some might describe a raised canopy as a bubble, while others hear bubble and assume something like a P-51D.

I agree that the XF1 remains were dumped at the North end of Pax river, and were later covered by tons of concrete rubble, and thus the XF1 is not a candidate for this mostly intact wreck. Same for at least one of the Arado-234s.


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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:56 pm 
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Seagull's wingspan is too large for this wreck - 41 feet. We're looking at something with a 35 foot wingspan.

The Navy did acquire two P-39s to be used as target planes. Could one of them have been disposed in this manner?


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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:10 pm 
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SaxMan wrote:
Seagull's wingspan is too large for this wreck - 41 feet. We're looking at something with a 35 foot wingspan.

The Navy did acquire two P-39s to be used as target planes. Could one of them have been disposed in this manner?


Per your OP,
"All-metal, low-wing, single-seat aircraft with bubble canopy, left wingtip to fuselage side 15 feet, fuselage 2' 6" wide, right wing broken, estimated wingspan 32' 6", rounded wingtip, vertical stabilizer not seen, engine and propeller missing."

"The site is murky, and the current was kicking uo the mud....."

F2L info here http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2012/01/wh ... t-f2l.html

Could be anything?

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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:03 pm 
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mike furline wrote:
Could be anything?

Yup, and being Pax River, possibly from non-american origin. Right?

Look up the video of the U-1105 to see how bad the viz is. Interesting subject though Saxman!

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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:10 pm 
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If you go with the foreign route, the choices are still pretty limited, but there is one plane that would fit the description fairly closely: Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar. It wouldn't be unusual for such a plane to be evaluated at Pax River, nor would the method of disposal be unusual for an Axis type once they got whatever needed data.

I corresponded back to the IMH to see if they would be willing to share more details. We know it's something down there. I'm also trying to suggest that they investigate the sites of two P-47Cs that went down in the Bay, one off Annapolis, the other off Middle River, or a pair of B-10s that had a midair collision in the waters off Ocean City. We'll see.


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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:21 pm 
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Another possibility: Focke Wulf 190A-4. This plane was definitely tested at Pax River in January & February 1944. 34' wingspan puts is in the ballpark.


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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:13 pm 
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My bet is a North American FJ-1 Fury. It has a straight wing and tail like a T-28 and bubble canopy like the F-86. They only built a few and they weren't successful.


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 Post subject: Re: Bell XFL-1 Found?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:23 pm 
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I received an email from Rob Rohr and he asked me to post this.

Quote:
The XL-1 is still buried with-in the breaker wall along with the Ardo and bits and piece of other airframe, what has been found most likely is one of the SC-1 that went down from NAS Pax River, as noted the description states that it has basically about a 36 foot wing span well these are the following dimensions for a SC-1 Seahawk Length 36 Feet 4.5 Inches Wing Span 41 Feet it was powered by a Wright R-1820-62. I have sent a request to look at any photo's that might have been taken and fired off an email to Pensacola about this. if it is a SC-1 and is as complete as what is stated then it would be the only know survivor .

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