Swoose at NMUSAF

bluethunder28 · **Joined:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:26 am **Posts:** 199

Garth wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is that we're losing WWII vets at what? A rate of about 1000 per day? And those still living who go to aviation museums to see aircraft that they flew, or which flew over them, deserve (to the extent possible) to see those aircraft.

Having three B-17s consolidated and displayed in a single museum may be really neat to some of us enthusiasts - but by doing so when there are holes in other prominant museums (including the aviation museum with the highest annual attendence in the world) robs some of the vets of what might be their first chance (and last) chance since the War to see an example of "their" aircraft up close and personal.

Fact is that DC is a much more prominant tourist destination (especially for WWII vets these days, given the numbers I've seen at Udvar-Hazy, NASM Mall and at the WWII and FDR Memorials) than Dayton, so having a B-17 at NASM (even if out at Dulles with it's lower attendence than the Mall) allows exposure of the aircraft and its type to a greater audience, both civillian and veteran. As much as people (myself included) are partisans for their preferred museum, at the end of the day the best thing to do is that which is in the interest of the museum-going public.

Well the first and last time I was in DC, I didn't go to the museums because both Enola Gay, Swoose and Flak Bait weren't on display and because of the new buildings going on, the off sites weren't open either. NASM had these planes not choose not to display them for years depriving Vets their right to see the planes that helped them win and come home from a war that took many lives. Just think of all the Vets that could have seen the planes for the first or the last time in their life that aren't here anymore.

Sorry but I don't feel bad for the NASM. They have/had historic aircraft and they felt it was better not to display them. Hooray for the one's that are displayed by other museums.

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Garth wrote:

Pat Carry wrote:

For additional info about the NMUSAF's acquistion of the Swoose check www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123106540

""The early years of World War II were a time of both tragedy and heroism," said museum director Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Charles D. Metcalf. "With The Swoose, the only surviving U.S. aircraft from the beginning of the war in the Pacific on Dec. 7, 1941, the Air Force's national museum will receive a B-17 that is a veteran of the very first day of the war in the Philippines while assigned to the 19th Bomb Group in the Philippine Islands. This is a great story in our history.""

(emphasis mine).

Isn't there a flying Grumman Duck that was on Ford Island during the Japanese attack?

Yes, it is Chuck Greenhill's Duck and here it is:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Grumman- ... 0905977/M/

Seems like the good General has been taking lessons from the Collings foundation!

tulsaboy · **Posted:** Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:59 pm

Isn't there also a P-40 that was pulled out of the Hawaii jungle that was there for the attack as well? And there was a civilian plane as well that was actually in the air during the attacks that's still around, IIRC.

kevin

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:01 pm

I am not sure but he could of meant a few things. THe Duck is beautiful to start with. I saw it at Oshkosh, and it was just amazing. But it didn't survive the war. If I remmber correctly it crashed and was recovered man years later. The Swoose survived the war operationally through upgrades. I am just guessing, I don't know. The other is maybe he mean the only surviving Air Force aircraft from Pearl harbor. There are a few other Pearl harbor survivors, but I think they are all Navy aircraft like the SBD in the NMNA in Florida which is oth a Pearl harbor and Midway survivor.

Garth · **Posted:** Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:37 pm

bluethunder28 wrote:

Well the first and last time I was in DC, I didn't go to the museums because both Enola Gay, Swoose and Flak Bait weren't on display and because of the new buildings going on, the off sites weren't open either. NASM had these planes not choose not to display them for years depriving Vets their right to see the planes that helped them win and come home from a war that took many lives. Just think of all the Vets that could have seen the planes for the first or the last time in their life that aren't here anymore.

Sorry but I don't feel bad for the NASM. They have/had historic aircraft and they felt it was better not to display them. Hooray for the one's that are displayed by other museums.

Not sure when you were in DC, but Flak Bait's fuselage has, iirc, been on display at the Mall museum since right after it opened in 1976, and the weekend tours at the Garber Facility in Suitland ran for a couple decades prior to being ended just before Udvar-Hazy opened.

The problem with "choosing" to display aircraft is the requirement to have a place to display them. Which for most priceless historic aviation artifacts means having an indoor place to display them. Swoose and Enola Gay suffered enormously from having been stored outdoors for years prior to being moved indoors as the Smithsonian acquired the buildings to hold them. Prior to the Mall museum opening (and the Mall museum could only hold the complete Enola Gay if one engine were located outside the building with one wing extending out over Independence Ave or Jefferson Dr) the Smithsonian-held aviation artifacts could be displayed in the Arts and Industry Building ... which was a tight fit for the Spirit of St. Louis.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand your point but I just don't agree with it. Is the right way to address any past wrongs to continue to perpetuate them in return? You seem to be making the argument that since past NASM management may have been negligent and veterans denied the ability to see their aircraft for a last time, that the current NASM management and current living veterans should be penalized as well. Sorry, I don't really believe in concepts like blood guilt, whether applied to families or organizations. NASM now has the space and a leadership committed to publically displaying a B-17 and restoring and displaying other aircraft (or even displaying aircraft that haven't been restored, like the P-61). They're about (fundraising permitting) to have a bleeding-edge restoration facility co-located (attached, actually) to Udvar-Hazy that will be accessable to the public on every day and for every hour that the museum is open, with Flak Bait apparently being queued up and first in line through the door.

Jerry O'Neill · **Posted:** Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:10 pm

Garth wrote:

Pat Carry wrote:

For additional info about the NMUSAF's acquistion of the Swoose check www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123106540

""The early years of World War II were a time of both tragedy and heroism," said museum director Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Charles D. Metcalf. "With The Swoose, the only surviving U.S. aircraft from the beginning of the war in the Pacific on Dec. 7, 1941, the Air Force's national museum will receive a B-17 that is a veteran of the very first day of the war in the Philippines while assigned to the 19th Bomb Group in the Philippine Islands. This is a great story in our history.""

(emphasis mine).

Isn't there a flying Grumman Duck that was on Ford Island during the Japanese attack?

I believe there are a few other aircraft also. The Marine Corps Sikorsky S-43 in NASM I think was at Pearl during the attack. Can anyone confirm?
Jerry

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:22 pm

Paging David Aiken...

Ryan

David_Aiken · **Joined:** Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:31 pm **Posts:** 403

Garth wrote:

Pat Carry wrote:

For additional info about the NMUSAF's acquistion of the Swoose check www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123106540

""The early years of World War II were a time of both tragedy and heroism," said museum director Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Charles D. Metcalf. "With The Swoose, the only surviving U.S. aircraft from the beginning of the war in the Pacific on Dec. 7, 1941, the Air Force's national museum will receive a B-17 that is a veteran of the very first day of the war in the Philippines while assigned to the 19th Bomb Group in the Philippine Islands. This is a great story in our history.""

(emphasis mine).

Isn't there a flying Grumman Duck that was on Ford Island during the Japanese attack?

Good catch, Garth, et al!

Everyone in the following confirmations (above) have assured that the statement "only surviving US aircraft" is in error. Yes, there are several still existing in museums and some still fly...

Uniquely, there were many civilian planes on the ground in Oahu which today regularly get in the air and their owners may not know of the actual "7 Dec" status of their civilian plane, unless they go to the history records.

Oh, my ex-neighbor, former 19BG Reunion President, and late friend Conrad Marvel was assigned to be "mechanic" on what is now the SWOOSE when that plane departed the Philippines. He would be proud of the remarks given here about "his" plane.

Cheers,
David Aiken, student of 7 Dec

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:02 am

This is not going to be an easy restoration. In my opinion it is iportant to ensure the Swoose has it's nose art on it. That is who the airplan is known, and why it is famous.

Shay · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:39 am

Ya know, here's a thought.

The aircraft has two sides, with the Artwork all on one side. They could do O.D. Swoose on one side and NMF w rudder stripes on the other. (or whatever combination)

You would get 2 displays and 2 stories out of one aircraft.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

sgt hawk · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:08 am

There will no doubt be some interesting and "thought out" (let's hope) decisions made as to how this treasure will be displayed. I'm sure it will get a lot of input on this site and Chris will try to keep us informed (if we don't wear him out). I hope they restore her to her "original" configuration, as that was what she was built for. However, if she wouldn't have become "The Swoose" she would have been turned into a toaster or beer can long ago. Maybe they can keep the exterior "Swoose Look" paint scheme, but get her to look like she did on Dec 8th and make everyone happy! There are still a few veterans out there who have a personal attatchment to the airplane as "The Swoose" and their wishes need to be recognised also. After all those are the folks we want our grandchildren to remember.

gilt · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:39 am

Shay wrote:

Ya know, here's a thought.

The aircraft has two sides, with the Artwork all on one side. They could do O.D. Swoose on one side and NMF w rudder stripes on the other. (or whatever combination)

You would get 2 displays and 2 stories out of one aircraft.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

This is the best plan for an aircraft with such an interesting and convoluted history, it can then represent the difficult and important post 7 Dec 1941 period and it's much longer and more famous later use as a VIP transport. Strip the VIP interior and display it in a fuselage mock-up.

Tom-

Django · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:44 am

Sasnak wrote:

This may seem like an extreme suggestion at first, but hear me out.

I agree with Django that being literally one of the first U.S. aircraft to respond to the Japanese upon declaration of war, it should be restored to that configuration. Not receiving the name "Swoose" until after she was repaired from her combat days, it seems impossible to incorporate the "nose art" into a restoration that depicts her combat days. So.....and again, hear me out.......Why don't they very carefully remove the skin that has the original nose art, along with the skin that contains the flags on the right side of the nose, and preserve (not restore) them in a display that would be located near the finished airframe. Obviously they would reskin the removed areas and finish the restoration as she would have appeared in combat, ie "Ole Betsy." This way, the plane would appear completely accurate to her 1941 appearance, while providing a unique way of telling the story of how she later came to be known as the "Swoose" and the executive transport. This "Swoose" sub-display could even include some samples of the executive interior that would be carefully removed during restoration back to bomber configuration.

Now I realize how sacrilegious this may seem for some, but I feel it could most effectively help to tell the entire story, while displaying the airframe in a singular timeframe. Also keep in mind that the "gun tub" will have to scratch-built, so it's not as if the airframe won't have some new skins/structure anyway.

Just a thought here, but one I think could really work for the NMUSAF.

I like the way you think.

I agree 100% that the skin with the nose art and the flags would make a great display and be preserved forever. If it is restored, it would have to be repainted reguardless (or stripped) and that would be a real shame to loose that artwork that has survived all these years. I know some will balk at the removal of original skins, but it is far better than seeing the original artwork wind up as a pile of dust on the floor. :shock:

(I would have liked the same of Diamond Lil's nose art to be preserved for CAF history, but timelines didn't allow for that unfortunately)

I realize it's not quite the same as a combat veteran, but everyone balked at Diamond Lil's conversion back into more of the original bomber configuration (ongoing as the bombay doors haven't been installed yet) and readoptation of an original nomenclature (supported by paperwork) of Ol 927. That is until the final product was debuted. Then (most) everyone loved it. So why can't THIS combat veteran B-17 be taken back to it's original combat configuration?

On second thought, never mind... it's FOREVER a transport plane because it has spent the last 66 years as a transport plane named the Swoose. It doesn't matter that it rolled off the assembly line and flew actual combat missions in January '42 because everyone knows it as a TRANSPORT plane. Because transport planes are way more cool than a bombers. :lol:

Tim Savage · **Joined:** Mon May 03, 2004 8:26 pm **Posts:** 630

mustangdriver wrote:

I am not sure but he could of meant a few things. THe Duck is beautiful to start with. I saw it at Oshkosh, and it was just amazing. But it didn't survive the war. If I remmber correctly it crashed and was recovered man years later. The Swoose survived the war operationally through upgrades. I am just guessing, I don't know. The other is maybe he mean the only surviving Air Force aircraft from Pearl harbor. There are a few other Pearl harbor survivors, but I think they are all Navy aircraft like the SBD in the NMNA in Florida which is oth a Pearl harbor and Midway survivor.

The Duck did survive the war. It crashed in the Bahamas as a civilian airplane sometime after the war. I can't recall what year. If I remember correctly it was the only J2F-4 that made it onto the civil register post-war as the rest were J2F-6s.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:39 am

Check out the Nov 1942 photos I posted on a separate thread.

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Swoose at NMUSAF

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