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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:46 am 
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Hi Mark

Couldn't agree more - best to let the team try to regroup and rescue the situation - who knows what dirty work happened at the crossroads on this !

As for leaving the war relics alone............

Good luck to all concerned

Perhaps when the dust settles and more important scandals hit the front pages up there this may be forgotten fairly quickly - one would hope so judging by the other stories in the paper......

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John P

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:44 am 
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Has the png actually ever cited statistics to back up their claim of war relics such as Swamp Ghost being a major draw for tourism. I for one find it hard to believe visitors would plan trips to png just to visit these relics.


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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:32 am 
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Good question.

From the news report:
Quote:
The local people had agree and have established rules and fees for visitors.


It's important here, if people want to see a useful resolution rather than an aircraft rotting on a wharf and lawyers getting richer, to try to see the other guy's point of view.

The local tribe and villagers have certainly gained from people visiting the aircraft over the years, and won't anymore. A few US dollars have a greater impact there, it has to be remembered by those living outside that kind of environment.

There's also a good case of 'hoping' for tourism rather than current numbers, not an unrealistic expectation. There's a relic battleship in a Harbor called Pearl... It's not a straight comparison, of course, but there's something to think about if someone was to propose raising and rebuilding it.

And the local guys to the crash site probably (certainly, I'd guess) have less respect for their governance than most of us. Frankly there'll be less done for the people by the bureaucrats than we get.

PNG isn't singing with one voice on this, and won't.

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:21 am 
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I'm trying to understand. They are saying that even though there is a documented legal agreement (as far as I know) that the people are asking the PM to void the agreement?

All being told at best estimate what are the total number of wrecks tourists can visit? Are we talking a handful or hundreds? Just curious

I apologize for comments I made. Just a lil miffed about the whole thing. I've edited most post as to prevent any possible impact no matter how slight.

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:39 am 
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These artefacts are unquestionably part of PNG's heritage, as well as being part of a bigger picture.

PNG should have the opportunity to recover, display and restore a representative selection which stays in PNG.

However, basing your tourist economy on artefacts that are by their very nature temporary must be madness. Surely it is better to realise that now, and before these wrecks get dangerous to the point they will injure the people who wish to visit them.

In many cases, I fail to see the value in aircraft that are relatively abundant in the west, and will cost an inordinate amount of money (much more than they are worth) to restore. We have to draw the line somewhere!


Bruce


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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:01 am 
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ROB,

With all due respect please "DONT",

This is exactly what I was concerned about!!!,
such actions at this time will only make things worse!



Quote:


Well Folks,

I think its time to flood the newspaper with letters via point out how the National Musuem has had chance in the past to save stuff and how if PNG is so worried about there Tourism then why do they allow the mass scrapping to still go on.

Also I want to know how in the he11 they think American Aircraft are there Heritage. Hey Justin thanks for getting the ball going and opening the gennie from the bottle.

Already start the letter if anyone needs backinginformation ask me and I'll provide it. I plan on siteing UNESCO stuff the musuem own policey and the original agreement they had with Charles and David oh this is going to be fun


Regardless of the American crew and American USAAC history of this aircraft it is also PNG wartime heritage, it is part of PNG's WW2 history, and they therfore DO have some stake in this.

The issue seems not about ownership but more about EXPORT rights, Australia has similar requirements regarding export of Heritage Items as does the UK, regardless of ownship rights.

IE if one of the Two ex USAAC P-39's that crashed in Australia during WW2 were attempted to be exported they would need to achieve an export permit, regardless of the fact both are currently privately owned, and both would be unlikely to be permitted to leave, despite the fact that they were not owned at any time by the Australian Government or indeed flown by the RAAF or Australians, they did however feature in "Australian History".


It would seem PNG Customs and its Minister is questioning the National Museum's authority to allow the item to be exported?, not so much to recover it or permit ownship? changes?


I think a bunch of foreigners writing to the local paper explaining how its not "Their" Heritage and "they werent looking after it properly anyway" is likely to raise public opinion firmly against the prospect of it EVERY leaving PNG rather than "convincing" them to let it go.

If you stir up public and media opinion enough you may back the PNG political processes into a corner, there is little point trying to argue UNESCO conventions to this population? and media?

By all means develop a logical, respectful submission and hold it for the IRC public inquiry if you feel so inclined?

The ability to apply limits and control of these wartime relics by the current PNG government is no different from modern UK claiming control of ancient Roman ruins on their soil, or indeed the US claiming control and protection of Spanish ruins on their soil or wrecks in their territorial waters.

Swamp Ghost IS part of PNG's heritage, but regardless of PNG's preferred future it cant go back into the swamp, or be left to be used as wharf fill due to ongoing neglect or vandalism!


If PNG is arguing it cant leave the country because its too valuable in terms of PNG heritage they have to plan to do something meaningful and long term with it, and any other viable airframes! already in the National Collection, as well as still recoverable.


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Mark Pilkington

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 Post subject: latest pic
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:10 am 
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in that newest article, does it look like the nose glass has been knocked out?

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:18 am 
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Mark_Pilkington wrote:
By all means develop a logical, respectful submission and hold it for the IRC public inquiry if you feel so inclined?


Very well stated Mark! All too often recently statements made on WIX have shown a distinct lack of respect for others, and in this case "others" is a nation. Nations such as PNG may not be as highly developed as the US, but that does not mean they should be disrespected.

Mike

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:35 am 
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Is the link to those recovery pictures still down?


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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:11 am 
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Col. Rohr wrote:
Also I've been looking at the actual ownership question I mean does the USAF still have ownership because while the US gace up all aircraft that were left at active fields they never gave up the ownership of aircraft lost durning combat.


I think you'll find that the USAF will lay no claim of ownership to abandoned aircraft unless they are historically significant above all others. I don't think it's likely the Gen. Metcalfe would go after this one.

Historically significant - Is a B-17E rare and unique?...Yes. Is the Bendix turret rare?.....sure. Does it have a Combat history?.....yeah somewhat. Is it a historically significant aircraft?.......well I guess it depends on who you ask the question to. Is Swamp Ghost on par with Enola Gay and the X-1? I don't think so. Does Swamp Ghost deserve better in the next 64 years? You bet she does. Who is to say who can do that best....again depends upon who you ask. Hopefully good things will come of this. Maybe PNG will become more proactive in recovering the aircraft for the purpouses of preserving them or will come up with a program to let aircraft be recovered by outside folks and restored under a extended lease program. But letting the aircraft sit out to rot and be scavenged as well as vandalized is not a responsible option.

Shay
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:55 am 
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I wonder how much of the plane will be left in the next 30 years IF the Swamp Ghost doesn't come home. I remember seeing pictures of her when she was first re-discovered and a lot has disappeared including the swamp!

Time to bring her home.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Hey guys,

FULL STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This means you Rohr, and everybody else no matter how well intentioned. Please, I beg you guys, just let this drop right now.

DO NOT do something hotheaded to cause certain bureaucrats to dig their heels in out of spite. This means no letters etc.

Please........

At this point I cannot say more.

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 Post subject: ????
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:03 pm 
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Quote:
FULL STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I concur
I said it before and I'll say it again,
QUIT TRYING TO POLICE THE WORLD!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:37 pm 
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Some more news from PNG newspapers today...

POST COURIER:
http://www.postcourier.com.pg/20060525/news02.htm

Quote:
War plane guns seized

TWO machine guns supposed to be shipped out of the country with the controversial American WWII B-17E bomber dubbed “Swamp Ghost” did not have export licences.
Customs officers say the two machine guns were built into the plane but they had to have separate export permits.
Customs officers dismantled the guns and removed them from the plane and put them away safely.
The warplane has an export permit following an agreement signed between the National Museum Board of Trustees and American military firm Military Aircraft Restoration Corporation which allowed MARC to salvage the plane and restore it in the United States of America.
However, the plane will not be removed pending the outcome of the Public Accounts Committee inquiry on July 1.
The PAC is a parliamentary committee that protects and investigates the use of public monies and state properties.
Acting Attorney-General Fred Tomo said they were acting on a directive from the PAC to obtain a National Court injunction restraining the exportation of the warplane.
Mr Tomo said his lawyers were getting information to establish how the agreement to allow the salvage and restoration of the plane was signed in the first place.
PAC Chairman John Hickey said the museum management had told him that $US100,000 (K320,000) was given as goodwill money to the state and to the Oro Provincial Government and the landowners.
Mr Hickey said he had given the museum board of trustees and its management 24 hours to declare the plane a national heritage item.
He said if investigations show that the plane had to be retained, part of the K320,000 should be used to have the plane transported back Northern Province.


More from POST COURIER:
http://www.thenational.com.pg/052506/editorial1.htm

Quote:
The Swamp Ghost saga
BY all means let Papua New Guinea make sensible diplomatic arrangements to retain the grounded World War Two bomber, dubbed the Swamp Ghost.
While the issue is scarcely in the same category as the Public Accounts Committee investigations, the numerous leadership tribunal hearings currently underway, or PNG’s battle against rape, sorcery and murder, a case can be made out for the downed bomber’s retention in this country.
At the same time, we should avoid knee-jerk reactions and acknowledge a few facts.
The aircraft presumably remains the property of the United States Air Force.
We imagine that it would have great historical significance to those Americans who fought in WWII in our country, and to their descendants.
We would do well to recognise why the Americans were fighting in our country at the time, and to calmly assess the contribution their involvement and that of the Australians made to the preservation of our freedom and the development of the independent state of Papua New Guinea.
Had those efforts failed, landowners in the area where the Swamp Ghost was shot down might not today own any land at all.
The Boeing B-17 bomber was downed in 1942, while returning from a raid on Japanese-held Rabaul.
That’s 64 years ago.
It would seem that during that long period, only the Americans have expressed any interest in the stranded plane.
According to a local historian, three attempts have been made by American groups to salvage the aircraft and return it to the United States.
To the best of our knowledge, no attempts have been made by any Papua New Guinean government or by the local landowners, to take advantage of the bomber, to preserve it, or in any way to create a tourist attraction from the plane’s presence.
The clear message PNG has sent to the outside world has been one of suspicion over attempts to salvage and preserve the plane, while making no effort to do so itself.
Let’s be honest.
This country’s reputation for preserving contemporary history, including WWII relics, has been almost entirely negative.
Almost all of the recognised connections with WWII that still remain in our country have been ignored, vandalised or simply forgotten.
Nor is our record with those remaining vestiges of our own history any better.
Only a tiny handful of our people displayed even the slightest interest in saving the birthplace of our independence, the House of Assembly.
It is almost inconceivable that given the chance to preserve that building for posterity, we allowed it to house squatters who ultimately destroyed any possibility of restoration.
Future generations will be scathing in their assessment of our apathy over that issue.
PNG is littered with battle sites, remarkable wartime and historical cemeteries, and a host of other relics rotting away in our harsh climate. Very few indeed have been carefully maintained and are available for tourist inspection.
There are dozens of fascinating wrecks in many of our harbours; there has been no attempts made to salvage any of these as aspects of our national history. In general, they have become havens for divers and fish, or have been plundered for anything of value that remained.
The Fairfax Harbour wreck of the Burns Philp passenger ship, the MV Macdhui, a far more important war relic than the Swamp Ghost, has been allowed to rust away to near invisibility.
The sea grave of many Port Moresby residents trapped when the ship was strafed on June 17 and 18, 1942, by Japanese bombers, the Macdhui should have been preserved as a maritime memorial park, a fitting tribute to the many innocent civilians who were slaughtered on board.
Our government should step back from the outburst of passionate nationalism that has erupted over the Swamp Ghost.
If it is thought to be a matter of national importance to keep this plane in PNG, then we should pursue the matter through appropriate diplomatic channels.
But at the same time, we should look back with candour at our own poor record of preserving or capitalising upon the huge range of wartime and
other historical relics that have waited in vain for funding, for the people’s interest, and for positive action to ensure their survival.


THE NATIONAL:
http://www.thenational.com.pg/052506/nation3.htm

Quote:
Minister wants report for NEC

By JULIA DAIA BORE
THE National Museum and Art Gallery had been directed to put together a submission for Culture and Tourism Minister David Basua to take to cabinet on all matters relating to the World War II Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress bomber.
The bomber, nicknamed the Swamp Ghost, was returning from an air raid mission in East New Britain when it crash landed on the Agaiembo Lake in 1942. It was recently retrieved from the lake and shipped to Lae where it was in the process of being dismantled and packed into containers for shipment to the US.
However, newspaper reports on these activities resulted in various government agencies intervening, including permanent parliamentary Public Accounts Committee chairman John Hickey and acting Prime Minister Sir Moi Avei.
The Swamp Ghost is now sitting idle at the main wharf in Lae, Morobe province.
Government authorities are also questioning the procedures used by the National Museum and Art Gallery board in permitting a group of Americans to retrieve and dismantle the Swamp Ghost for shipment overseas.
Internal Revenue Commission (IRC) chief David Sode, when contacted yesterday, said he had not received any export documentation from the Americans trying to ship the remains of the Boeing B-17 bomber.
“A lot will depend on the legal status of export authorisation from the National Museum and Art Gallery,” Mr Sode said, when asked if the IRC would block the shipment of the relic to the US.
Sir Moi had called on all relevant authorities do all in their powers to prevent the aircraft from leaving the shores of PNG while cabinet reviews the museum board’s decision.
Meanwhile, the chairman of the National Museum and Art Gallery board Arthur Jawodimbari is away overseas.
He is understood to be on a two-week prayer retreat in North Queensland, Australia.
Museum executives could not locate him yesterday to sign important documents explaining their position on the matter.
Acting director Simon Poraituk told The National yesterday that the chairman was out of the country and could not be reached to comment on the Swamp Ghost.
Deputy board chairman Andrew Kongri also refused to comment yesterday, preferring to wait until the full board of 13 members meets to discuss the issues at hand.

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:31 pm 
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Plenty of sense in that second passage..lets get whoever wrote that in charge.! Hopefully someone is guarding the aircraft as it sits, no doubt the vandals will start coming out of the woodwork :roll:

Dave


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