Mid-air at Duxford, Pilots ok

WallyB · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:06 pm

ZRX61 wrote:

That big dent from the impact right behind the rad is where the control cables run....

Where is the P-51 damage photo ? I must have missed that.

Lynn Allen · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:28 pm

Obergrafeter wrote:

Is there a handle to eject the canopy, or just rolling it back at speed take it off? Amazing sequence and expert flying on his part!

Ober, you pull the handle and it releases the canopy which is push by the airstream and rides the rails.

51fixer · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:36 pm

gary1954 wrote:

PeterA wrote:

Coming home on a wing and a prayer.

PeterA

WOW! this pilot should get a Broken Wing Award for saving this airframe.

He had too as it was a package deal.
Save the airplane and be able to kiss the ground.
The P-51 structure where the impact was made consists of a shelf that extends from the rear cockpit bulkhead, just aft of the canopy when it is closed, to the point where the tail bolts onto the fus. This is just forward of the front of tail gear doors.
This shelf is above the ducting and skin on the bottom aft of the radiator. In essence the curving skin you see on the bottom attaches to a flat shelf made of .064 alum with 2 U channel .125 Alum longerons attached down each side. The side skins and shelf are riveted to the U channels so it is a strong structural piece. Just forward of the production break where the tail and fus bolt up is a large hole for a person to access the interior of the fuselage, commonly known as the hellhole.
Along the sides a few inches above the U channels are the rudder cables, 1 on each side. 4 elevator cables that connect in the back and control pitch are passing around 12" up at the bulkhead where the tail and fus bolt together. The 4 cables are split in pairs 2 mount to the lower part of the elevator bellcrank and the other 2 attach on the top.
Along the left side skin are several trim cable as well for the rudder and elevator trim.
If the AD wing cut the Longeron and shelf to get to the cables there wasn't much structure left to keep the tail flying straight.
Loss of pitch control would have been cables severed or tail being flexible relieving tension on the cables or just flopping around.

ZRX61 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am **Posts:** 2308

WallyB wrote:

ZRX61 wrote:

That big dent from the impact right behind the rad is where the control cables run....

Where is the P-51 damage photo ? I must have missed that.

You can see it in Dave Taylors video of the incident.

http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

ok, let me rephrase that, you can see it in a close up shot from that video which I am now looking for..

Edit: page 2 of this thread....

p51 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:24 am

Firebird wrote:

Is it just me, or is the entire airframe bent downward slightly past where the impact is? Kinda looks like it from here, but maybe I'm wrong...

davidbray · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:26 am

The damage appears to be just behind the radiator door/on it, on the doghouse. The dent goes all the way up and touches the blue on the national insignia. There is a really good zoomed pic on one of the links (sorry can't remember which one it was.) If I read my tech drawing correctly it would appear that it was quite possible for the cables to be fouled.

PeterA · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:09 am

davidbray wrote:

The damage appears to be just behind the radiator door/on it, on the doghouse. The dent goes all the way up and touches the blue on the national insignia. There is a really good zoomed pic on one of the links (sorry can't remember which one it was.) If I read my tech drawing correctly it would appear that it was quite possible for the cables to be fouled.

Shots at the crash site suggest, repeat suggest, that the starboard stabiliser/tailplane may also have been impacted in flight.

It will all be in the report.

PeterA

warbird2 · **Joined:** Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:03 am **Posts:** 173

Chappie wrote:

WallyB wrote:

warbird2 wrote:

I hate to break it to you but it is not a requirement to be a pilot to know things about formation flying.

Actually, yes it is. The important things.

I agree. I'm a private pilot with about 300 hours and 20-some of aerobatics. I've been going to airshows all my life and thought formation flying looked somewhat difficult. Well...two years ago I started flying on FAST formation flights as a GIB/photographer (about 25 hours to date) and its was an eye opening experience. I was stunned at how busy a pilot is when flying in close formation. Someone can sit down and explain what goes on during wing-work but until you see it from inside the cockpit you just won't "get it".

Chappie

The point of my post was to say that many people that fly in multiplace airplanes but are not pilots, are still very familiar with the rules, procedures and techniques of formation flying. Certainly enough to know when it is not being done properly.

51fixer · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:28 am

davidbray wrote:

The damage appears to be just behind the radiator door/on it, on the doghouse. The dent goes all the way up and touches the blue on the national insignia. There is a really good zoomed pic on one of the links (sorry can't remember which one it was.) If I read my tech drawing correctly it would appear that it was quite possible for the cables to be fouled.

This photo shows the L/H side and the impact was on the other side. As the AD wing was damaged and separated, I wonder which side suffered more damage?
It will be interesting to see what is contained in the report.
In a previous comment I suggested the cables might have been severed. It is also a possibility that where the cable attachment points are could have tore, adjustment connections
could have stripped and pulleys could have been ripped from the brackets all leading to the same result.

warbird_patrick · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:33 am

51fixer wrote:

The P-51 structure where the impact was made consists of a shelf that extends from the rear cockpit bulkhead, just aft of the canopy when it is closed, to the point where the tail bolts onto the fus. This is just forward of the front of tail gear doors.
This shelf is above the ducting and skin on the bottom aft of the radiator. In essence the curving skin you see on the bottom attaches to a flat shelf made of .064 alum with 2 U channel .125 Alum longerons attached down each side. The side skins and shelf are riveted to the U channels so it is a strong structural piece. Just forward of the production break where the tail and fus bolt up is a large hole for a person to access the interior of the fuselage, commonly known as the hellhole.
Along the sides a few inches above the U channels are the rudder cables, 1 on each side. 4 elevator cables that connect in the back and control pitch are passing around 12" up at the bulkhead where the tail and fus bolt together. The 4 cables are split in pairs 2 mount to the lower part of the elevator bellcrank and the other 2 attach on the top.
Along the left side skin are several trim cable as well for the rudder and elevator trim.
If the AD wing cut the Longeron and shelf to get to the cables there wasn't much structure left to keep the tail flying straight.
Loss of pitch control would have been cables severed or tail being flexible relieving tension on the cables or just flopping around.

Here are some photos of the area 51fixer is talking about "inside the hellhole".

Looking forward

Looking forward

Lower aft right side

CH2Tdriver · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:39 am

p51 wrote:

spookythecat wrote:

In such a case, I can’t imagine an airplane fan without that level of instinct or training could have gotten out in time, and some pilots might not have hit the silk knowing that, which could have killed both people.

.....sometimes you don't have a choice. When I went for my T-6 ride with WIX'er Chuck Gardner, he made sure that I was fully capable and practice releasing my harness and opening the canopy from being strapped into the front seat. The chute I was wearing was on a lanyard so there would be nothing to pull, just had to release the harness slide back the canopy and exit the aircraft. He said "I don't plan on it but here's how it goes.....If we have to exit the aircraft I will say "BAIL OUT....BAIL OUT...BAIL OUT", that's it. By the end of the third bail out I will be out of the aircraft."

:shock:

OK....got it! :lol:

Pete

Speedy · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:28 am

CH2Tdriver wrote:

He said "I don't plan on it but here's how it goes.....If we have to exit the aircraft I will say "BAIL OUT....BAIL OUT...BAIL OUT", that's it. By the end of the third bail out I will be out of the aircraft."

Ha ha...I got a similar brief on my first T-6 ride. "If you see me jump out, you might want to follow me..."

Jim Beasley · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:49 am

I tell people to hang on to the ripcord so we can repack the chute

Speedy wrote:

CH2Tdriver wrote:

He said "I don't plan on it but here's how it goes.....If we have to exit the aircraft I will say "BAIL OUT....BAIL OUT...BAIL OUT", that's it. By the end of the third bail out I will be out of the aircraft."

Ha ha...I got a similar brief on my first T-6 ride. "If you see me jump out, you might want to follow me..."

Red Tail · **Joined:** Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:56 pm **Posts:** 138

Legendofaces wrote:

51fixer wrote:

The P-51 structure where the impact was made consists of a shelf that extends from the rear cockpit bulkhead, just aft of the canopy when it is closed, to the point where the tail bolts onto the fus. This is just forward of the front of tail gear doors.
This shelf is above the ducting and skin on the bottom aft of the radiator. In essence the curving skin you see on the bottom attaches to a flat shelf made of .064 alum with 2 U channel .125 Alum longerons attached down each side. The side skins and shelf are riveted to the U channels so it is a strong structural piece. Just forward of the production break where the tail and fus bolt up is a large hole for a person to access the interior of the fuselage, commonly known as the hellhole.
Along the sides a few inches above the U channels are the rudder cables, 1 on each side. 4 elevator cables that connect in the back and control pitch are passing around 12" up at the bulkhead where the tail and fus bolt together. The 4 cables are split in pairs 2 mount to the lower part of the elevator bellcrank and the other 2 attach on the top.
Along the left side skin are several trim cable as well for the rudder and elevator trim.
If the AD wing cut the Longeron and shelf to get to the cables there wasn't much structure left to keep the tail flying straight.
Loss of pitch control would have been cables severed or tail being flexible relieving tension on the cables or just flopping around.

Here are some photos of the area 51fixer is talking about "inside the hellhole".

Looking forward

Wish I had a handy dandy red marker to mark the photos. This photo tells the story: The silver pipe looking thing is the coolant door actuator rod. The cables that appear to surround it are the elevator cables. Note where they come through the bulkhead at the bottom near the "Shelf". The rudder cables are little harder to see but they are about an inch or so above the shelf, one on each side of the fuselage. The oxygen bottle rack covers up the left through-hole in the bulkhead but the adjuster clevis can clearly be seen...the blue cap on the AN fitting looks like it's pointing at it. From this vantage point the rear of the radiator is about 18" infront of and just below this bulkhead. Keep in mind where the AD's wing impacted the Mustang. You can fly an airplane without a rudder in a very rudimentary fashion. Without an elevator, you're screwed. In my judgment I can't see how Mr. Davies had any authority over the tails control surfaces.

Regards,
John

the330thbg · **Joined:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:06 pm **Posts:** 2713

Red Tail wrote:

Legendofaces wrote:

51fixer wrote:

The P-51 structure where the impact was made consists of a shelf that extends from the rear cockpit bulkhead, just aft of the canopy when it is closed, to the point where the tail bolts onto the fus. This is just forward of the front of tail gear doors.
This shelf is above the ducting and skin on the bottom aft of the radiator. In essence the curving skin you see on the bottom attaches to a flat shelf made of .064 alum with 2 U channel .125 Alum longerons attached down each side. The side skins and shelf are riveted to the U channels so it is a strong structural piece. Just forward of the production break where the tail and fus bolt up is a large hole for a person to access the interior of the fuselage, commonly known as the hellhole.
Along the sides a few inches above the U channels are the rudder cables, 1 on each side. 4 elevator cables that connect in the back and control pitch are passing around 12" up at the bulkhead where the tail and fus bolt together. The 4 cables are split in pairs 2 mount to the lower part of the elevator bellcrank and the other 2 attach on the top.
Along the left side skin are several trim cable as well for the rudder and elevator trim.
If the AD wing cut the Longeron and shelf to get to the cables there wasn't much structure left to keep the tail flying straight.
Loss of pitch control would have been cables severed or tail being flexible relieving tension on the cables or just flopping around.

Here are some photos of the area 51fixer is talking about "inside the hellhole".

Looking forward

Wish I had a handy dandy red marker to mark the photos. This photo tells the story: The silver pipe looking thing is the coolant door actuator rod. The cables that appear to surround it are the elevator cables. Note where they come through the bulkhead at the bottom near the "Shelf". The rudder cables are little harder to see but they are about an inch or so above the shelf, one on each side of the fuselage. The oxygen bottle rack covers up the left through-hole in the bulkhead but the adjuster clevis can clearly be seen...the blue cap on the AN fitting looks like it's pointing at it. From this vantage point the rear of the radiator is about 18" infront of and just below this bulkhead. Keep in mind where the AD's wing impacted the Mustang. You can fly an airplane without a rudder in a very rudimentary fashion. Without an elevator, you're screwed. In my judgment I can't see how Mr. Davies had any authority over the tails control surfaces.

Regards,
John

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Mid-air at Duxford, Pilots ok

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