original vs new built

[k5083]

Of course nobody is saying new-build warbirds suck; to posit it that way is to set up a bit of a straw man.

Just about everyone agrees that new-build warbirds are great and original ones are even better; the only serious question is how much better or does it even matter much at all.

Like Bill implies, it is not a question of rigid categories but of proportions. You could come up with an originality percentage or score for any airplane if you are familiar enough with how it was [re]built.

Does originality/provenance matter? To whom? Buyers/owners? Market pricing and advertising suggest that it does, at least to some. I'm sure there are others who actually prefer a new-build for maintenance and safety reasons (hidden vintage corrosion etc., see P-51 article in this month's Warbird Digest).

To buffs/fans/spectators/wannabes? Most of us probably think original airframes are a bit more special, with bonus points for combat history. How much more special depends on how much we value different aspects, i.e. historical artifact, educational tool, voom-voom hot rod, or just nice airplane.

August

[Saville]

If it is all new, if none of it was ever a plane built by the factory, then it is not a genuine original. No matter how close the copy is it is still a copy, and of course if you take it to extreme almost no restoration is truly all original. Were the tires,tubes actually factory produced in WWII? How about the fabric, paint, battery,the safety wire, the canopy, seat belts etc. Honda can build a great period looking cruiser bike, but it is not a Harley. My plane certainly qualifies as a Spitfire, the majority of it was built by Supermarine and Rolls in WWII, but it has modern fabric, canopy, similar but not exact paint. When does a restoration become not original? I guess anytime more than half is factory it is a repaired or restored original, but there may be planes we consider as genuine that have more than half the parts new. I don't know if there is any agreed on amount that means it is the real thing.

AS I understand it, ships, boats and airplanes are all viewed the same by the insurance company:

Take an original airplane - Spit, 51, whatever. 1944 factory fresh.

Now replace one part. It's still viewed by Lloyds of London as the same airplane, same tail number. all the same.

Now replace another part....same deal.

Repeat until you've replaced Every part.

It's still the same airplane.

[Bill Greenwood]

In my mind real or genuine would mean it was once an original airplane, even if it had subsequently been repaired or restored. If it was never an original plane, but is built by a modern facility then it is a reproduction. In furniture one can find very nice and affordable copies of period pieces; but if you are selling at an auction the real thing, even with some wear is going to command a premium price. We built a Starlite kitplane, to factory plans and specs; but it is not all factory built, regs require us to do at least 51% of the work, and the result is by FAA, a Giles-Greenwood, not a Starlite. I think it is great that people are recreating some of these types that are so rare as to be almost extinct. The problem might arise if one tries to market anew built plane as genuine and is a little loose with the facts. As far as the advantages of the new built, you can change features, but if it has a glass cockpit, a simpler wing or an Allison engine, it is not really a Spitfire.

[Cripes]

I'm new here so bear with me, but is it possible to build new engines, say a Merlin or 2800? Seems like building new frames isn't an issue (but expensive) , powerplants are a little more problematic.

Cheers

[DoraNineFan]

Maybe one day we can get this Ferrari engine factory in the video to make some new engines. They've got the tooling and expertise--plus they have REALLY great taste in music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYQNM-eVmTQ

The video is very educational, with a mixture of high tech and Old World craftsmanship. It looks they're using lost-wax casting. Now image this factory doing a production run of Merlins, Jumos, and DBs. Now how much does a Ferrari engine factory cost?

[Bill Greenwood]

Could a new factory make Merlins or 280Os? Perhaps someone who is really good with economic figures could come up with what investment it would to produce these now? A few years ago some guys came to the P-51 forum in Oshkosh. I think they represented a factory from a former Eastern bloc country. Ain't it interesting how quick these guys become capitalists? Anyway some of what they claimed, producing selected 51 parts like new longerons seemed almost believable. But then they claimed they were going to build new Merlins. I could not really spot the scam as they made it plain they were not asking for any money. Seems a third of our guys said no way, a third were ready to sign up and the rest in the middle. The had photos of a big factory and a huge crankshaft for a locomotive, and of course the lure of cheap labor, no unions. Anyway I think nothing came of it. If I wanted a replica warbird I'd sure consider a Thunder Mustang.

[Dan Newcomb]

This reminds me of an old story..

“This is my grandfather’s ax. Yes we have had to replace the handle a few times and over the decades a couple of blades”.

[Dan Newcomb]

I worked at Douglas Aircraft in Long Beach building DC 8s in the late ‘60s. Now I spend my free time working on war birds. If it flies it can’t be 100% original. Every plane that I have ever worked on had some non-factory part somewhere. I have never seen a 60 plus year old flyer that hasn’t had a corrosion issue. Many war birds are a collection of new and used parts that were never on the original as it came out the factory door. Just about anything can be remade without too much difficulty except the wing spars. Yes they can and have been remade but only on a rare occasion and at a fantastic cost. If the spars are good and you throw enough money and time at it you can rebuild it. The only original part on a couple of birds I know of is the wing spar.

[Simcoe Warrior]

I'm new here so bear with me, but is it possible to build new engines, say a Merlin or 2800? Seems like building new frames isn't an issue (but expensive) , powerplants are a little more problematic.

Cheers

Yes it is possible to do but at the moment it would be very, very expensive. However, I mean strictly at this point in time. There are some incredible things being done with rapid prototyping right now and also with point cloud scanning. Basically the effort it would take to re-engineer thousands of parts can be done with 3D scanning - a massive time savings. Once the part is into 3D it can be pulled into a CAM program used to machine moulds, dies etc, again a major time savings. These types of mfg processes are already very much in use.

The big break through IMO is just starting to emerge. Rapid prototyping allows you to "print" a part to use as a pattern or accurate model. Advances are taking place were short run production parts are being made this way with plastics. Research is already underway to do it with other materials ranging from metals to bio-compounds to create tissues for organ transplants. 20-30 years from now it will likely be possible to "print" parts of a Merlin Engine etc, when that happens replica aircraft could really explode onto the scene.

And with any luck we'll get to see a flying Handley page Halifax.

[oscardeuce]

How about your own 80% Corsair?

http://www.corsair82.com/

[Nathan]

What's wrong with everyone? Both are interesting. I like real warbirds and I also like reproduction aircraft. Now, if only someone would reproduce a few F2A-3 Buffalo's! How cool would that be?

[engguy]

I worked in a proto type shop. Did lots of industry secret stuff, like things you will see in the next few years. I have been around the rapid prototyping, stereolithographic machines very cool stuff. There are some really fantastic things coming in that field soon. But it will take some years to get the bugs out of them. It may someday render machining as obsolete. But for the time being machining is the only show there is for metal, well yeah foundry work. Anyway the cost to reproduce any of these engines would be very high unless the one/s doing it are just hobbyist’s. Gosh look at what the big overhaul outfits charge just to take one apart and put it back together again, now add the cost of making all those parts from scratch. And besides no one will ever put their money where their mouth is. It just never seems to happen.

[Mark V]

In my mind real or genuine would mean it was once an original airplane, even if it had subsequently been repaired or restored. If it was never an original plane, but is built by a modern facility then it is a reproduction.

Precisely - its the concept of continuation of history and traceability of that history - Provenance!

[marine air]

It doesn't seem likely that they will be building R-2800's anytime soon. There are thousands of them laying around, worldwide, in many different versions. Rebuilds are priced pretty reasonably when compared to new engines piston or turbine. Same with Merlins.
It's more likely that as there become critical items, say crankshafts, or pistons, for a Merlin, or heads for a DB, that they will be able to manufacture a run of these, brand new at prices that make sense to the buyers. Wouldn't it be nice if they could run some new center section spars for the F4U Corsairs?
It's less likely that they would tool up and make "bad" engines. Like Szekely 3 cylinder radials, or the early model R-3350's. It's more logical they would offer a way to adapt good engine types to good airframes.

[Warbird Kid]

My dream: to be able to one day reproduce brand new corsairs In Startford. At the old "now abandoned" Stratford, Avco Lycoming, Sikorsky, Chance Vought factory. Where they were origionaly born.

I think both types are good. New or Old! As long as they are flying.