Investing in Warbirds and other questions.

HarvardIV · **Joined:** Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:08 pm **Posts:** 1437

I'd have to agree w/ t6flier on this one. The principles of economics apply here. There is no way that a few mustang owners can "make" their planes to be worth over a million just by buying one. It happens on its own by supply and demand. Otherwise tell me how to make an L-5 worth 2 million each, but let me buy one for $35k first.

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

RMB wrote:

Was this quoted to you by a specific shop? If so which one?
regards
Rmb

fighterfactory.com

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

HarvardIV wrote:

Quote:

ok i'll try to simplify this for you.

people started investing thier money into p-51s hoping to make a huge profits, now the prices are just ridiculous for the p-51 they are investing in other aircraft hoping to make huge profits.

ie: sea fury from 150-200k in 5 years to 700-800k understand?

another would be the new build yak 3's 9's, if you want to know the exact price of one of these airframes without the allison you have to call them but its extremly low. and the minimum ive seen these forsale for in the US is double the price and the maximum is 10X the price.

so if you want to invest in a warbird so you can get rich and rob someone of a chance to fly one in the future then go ahead, maybe one day your t-6 will be worth a million.

Homer, not sure how buying planes builds up the price? I'd say strictly supply/demand. Maybe I was sleeping that day in economics class?

Yes all these birds seem to go up in value over time. I still don't see how buying builds up price. That's an interesting concept.

because they bought them 5 years ago for 800k now they want to be greedy and sell them for 1.5 million

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

t6flier wrote:

Sorry couldnt stand to sit by anymore! I know many 51 owners and have for nearly 20years. I can say with out a doubt that most of the owners I know have a pure love of the mustang. This being very much like the majority of other 51 lovers in the world. Difference being they happen to have the financial horsepower to own and operate the machine. I can assure you it's not necessarily a great investment unless your able to hold long term and then who knows. I am fairly sure the stock market in the last 10 years would have beaten the investment rate. However there are not many airplanes you can buy at its respective low end scale price's (ie. airplanes that need restored) have them restored and at the end of the day come really close or be within the range of the top of the market. It is being done. Secondly the owners I've recently dealt with really really love owning them, sharing them with the vets and others. This I can assure you is genuine. The good news is that while your ENJOYING your "investment" it's not losing value. Its strictly supply and demand for the really desireable machines. I would include the SeaFury with desireability thus causing the market to rise.
There is NO way you could scratch build a D model mustang for 500k. I can also assure you of that.
Mike

oh the pure love of the mustang? i see the love when they chop 8 ft off the wings, give a d an h tail, change the engine, cut the fuselage open and fibreglass it over with a tiny canopy then go racing in it.

of course you can build a mustang for 500k, even in america. you can build a fw190 for 500k (flugwerke) a new yak 3 or 9 for less than 200k complete with engine, thats a stupid statement.

the only way it would cost more than 500k is if you built it from NOS parts at "collectors" prices

HarvardIV · **Joined:** Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:08 pm **Posts:** 1437

Quote:

because they bought them 5 years ago for 800k now they want to be greedy and sell them for 1.5 million

Ok homer, I'll give you that one. I'd say that makes sense. Never did think about that.. One guy raises the price, and trhe others follow suit. I'd still say economic principles cause this to happen.

O.P. · **Posted:** Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:13 am

homer wrote:

of course you can build a mustang for 500k, even in america. you can build a fw190 for 500k (flugwerke) a new yak 3 or 9 for less than 200k complete with engine, thats a stupid statement.

the only way it would cost more than 500k is if you built it from NOS parts at "collectors" prices

You're not building a full size, merlin powered mustang for 500k, anywhere. Maybe you could build a decent papa51 mustang for 500k. As far as the Flugwerk birds, the "kit", is 550k,EUROS. Then you have to get the rest of the pieces parts, assemble it, certify it. Your probably pushing 900k-1 mill, by then, minimum. Good examples of "new build" prices, are the 262's and the Oscars. Wanting a million bucks for these is not greed, it's what it costs to build them, and certify them.

The reason Mustangs, and warbird prices in general, went up, was not greedy owners, it was because of demand. A good analogy, in my mind at least, would be to sell your house, for what you paid for it. Or better yet, to introduce a time and demand element, sell your parents house for what they paid for it. You wouldn't do that, it would be insane, and to top it off, the person who bought it, would probably have it back on the market at the correct price, the next morning.

RMB · **Posted:** Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:52 am

The fighter factory dosnt built entire airplanes. They only build a few parts. Any other place that quotes that 500,000 price.
By the way, the last mustang that was heavily re-worked for air racing was VOO-DOO and the owner converted it back to stock. Actually there are only 3 mustangs that are dedicated racers. DAGO RED,STREGA, and PRECIOUS METAL. All other racers are really stock airplanes. Some remove the wing extensions for the races but return stock the week after.On top of that there are at least 4-5 airplanes that have been made back to stock from their racing configuration.

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

O.P. wrote:

homer wrote:

of course you can build a mustang for 500k, even in america. you can build a fw190 for 500k (flugwerke) a new yak 3 or 9 for less than 200k complete with engine, thats a stupid statement.

the only way it would cost more than 500k is if you built it from NOS parts at "collectors" prices

You're not building a full size, merlin powered mustang for 500k, anywhere. Maybe you could build a decent papa51 mustang for 500k. As far as the Flugwerk birds, the "kit", is 550k,EUROS. Then you have to get the rest of the pieces parts, assemble it, certify it. Your probably pushing 900k-1 mill, by then, minimum. Good examples of "new build" prices, are the 262's and the Oscars. Wanting a million bucks for these is not greed, it's what it costs to build them, and certify them.

The reason Mustangs, and warbird prices in general, went up, was not greedy owners, it was because of demand. A good analogy, in my mind at least, would be to sell your house, for what you paid for it. Or better yet, to introduce a time and demand element, sell your parents house for what they paid for it. You wouldn't do that, it would be insane, and to top it off, the person who bought it, would probably have it back on the market at the correct price, the next morning.

the mustang price doesnt include an engine
i didnt realise it would cost 400k for paint and instruments in the flug 190 :roll:

and the 262 is a decent price because the engines are very expensive.

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

RMB wrote:

The fighter factory dosnt built entire airplanes. They only build a few parts. Any other place that quotes that 500,000 price.
By the way, the last mustang that was heavily re-worked for air racing was VOO-DOO and the owner converted it back to stock. Actually there are only 3 mustangs that are dedicated racers. DAGO RED,STREGA, and PRECIOUS METAL. All other racers are really stock airplanes. Some remove the wing extensions for the races but return stock the week after.On top of that there are at least 4-5 airplanes that have been made back to stock from their racing configuration.

they have been building parts for 3+ years and thier goal is to build replicas within 12 months and 500k is the quote. now it can be done for 1/5 that in the east w/o engine

O.P. · **Posted:** Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:27 am

homer wrote:

the mustang price doesnt include an engine
i didnt realise it would cost 400k for paint and instruments in the flug 190 :roll:

Straight off of OANDA.....

550,000 Euro = 713,955 US Dollar

You're starting to get way behind the curve already. Unless you're an A&P IA, with the ability to take a year or more off from work, you're gonna be writing a couple three big checks.

As for as the Mustangs go, you should probably start out with a zeroed out engine and prop. It would have to be an extremely inexpensive kit to get you in under 500k for a flyable plane. And then...you'd have to be an A&P IA with a lot of spare time..........

I think one reason the FlugWerk birds are as inexpensive as they are, is the fact that they aren't using the original BMW engines. Thats not a luxury currently available for Mustangs.

As far as the new 262 engines, I'd be very surprised if they exceeded the cost of a T28 engine, maybe a T-6 engine. I might be wrong about that, I'll look it up. But older jet engines, don't cost as much as you would think. The main cost of the bird, and all of those birds, is many years of research, development, and most importantly, labor.

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

the mustang and any other aircraft can be certified as homebuilt without many issues and not much cash.

you dont need a zeroed engine & prop at all.

the 262 uses new general electric j-85 engines and they are very expensive

O.P. · **Posted:** Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:29 am

homer wrote:

the mustang and any other aircraft can be certified as homebuilt without many issues and not much cash.

you dont need a zeroed engine & prop at all.

the 262 uses new general electric j-85 engines and they are very expensive

If you're willing, at least in the case of the FlugWerk bird, to call a 700+k cash layout for the kit, a homebuilt, and treat it as such....well...can't say much about that...it's not a 40k RV-4 kit..I guess it is a "homebuilt", they actually made it that way to make it easier to certify/sell. Even with that, you still have a pretty good cash outlay to get it airborne, no matter what, you're still pushing the 900k mark.

You're right, you don't need a zeroed prop and engine, you just need airworthy ones. The difference, cost wise, in this case is minimal.

I don't know what a J-85 engine cost's, yet, but, unless it costs way more than 100k plus, per engine, it doesn't even start to account for the total cost of the plane.

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

O.P. wrote:

homer wrote:

the mustang and any other aircraft can be certified as homebuilt without many issues and not much cash.

you dont need a zeroed engine & prop at all.

the 262 uses new general electric j-85 engines and they are very expensive

If you're willing, at least in the case of the FlugWerk bird, to call a 700+k cash layout for the kit, a homebuilt, and treat it as such....well...can't say much about that...it's not a 40k RV-4 kit..I guess it is a "homebuilt", they actually made it that way to make it easier to certify/sell. Even with that, you still have a pretty good cash outlay to get it airborne, no matter what, you're still pushing the 900k mark.

You're right, you don't need a zeroed prop and engine, you just need airworthy ones. The difference, cost wise, in this case is minimal.

I don't know what a J-85 engine cost's, yet, but, unless it costs way more than 100k plus, per engine, it doesn't even start to account for the total cost of the plane.

i think its about 135k per engine, im not sure though ive just been told that

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:06 am

homer wrote:

i think its about 135k per engine, im not sure though ive just been told that

I don't know about that. I fly T-38s with J85 engines, and the *fuel control unit alone* costs $85,000 to replace. I'd think the engine was a lot more expensive than that.

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

Randy Haskin wrote:

homer wrote:

i think its about 135k per engine, im not sure though ive just been told that

I don't know about that. I fly T-38s with J85 engines, and the *fuel control unit alone* costs $85,000 to replace. I'd think the engine was a lot more expensive than that.

that just reinforces what ive said about the cost of the airframes :wink:

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