P-38 Checkout, a few quick notes

[daveymac82c]

Hey Scott,

I really enjoyed your narrative about the check out. I was kind of surprised that you said it had similar flight characteristics as a B-25. I'm thinking to myself, "One's a bomber and one's a fighter, how can they fly so similar?"

none-the-less, I join everyone else in thanking you for posting your experience. And as much as I've never flown an extra, an F-15, or an F-4, I think I still got an idea of what you were talking about.

Cheers,

David

[hsperdue]

Hey Scott,

I really enjoyed your narrative about the check out. I was kind of surprised that you said it had similar flight characteristics as a B-25. I'm thinking to myself, "One's a bomber and one's a fighter, how can they fly so similar?"

none-the-less, I join everyone else in thanking you for posting your experience. And as much as I've never flown an extra, an F-15, or an F-4, I think I still got an idea of what you were talking about.

Cheers,

David

I've never flown a bomber other than a B-25... but I can say that it flies very nicely... combination of weight/inertia and roll response.

I'm glad you enjoyed the narrative and got the picture.

gunny

[warbird1]

3) Again 120 is the magic number... but as far as flying the pattern is concerned if you are configured the airplane will not maintain level flight... below 500' you don't have enough altitude to attempt a go around... with Full Flap you are committed to land... don't screw it up.

So, if I understand this correctly, here is what you are saying. Anytime the airplane is configured (i.e. gear and flaps), no matter what airspeed you have, the airplane will not be able to maintain level flight under any conditions, correct? Is this regardless of flap setting also?

What is the significance of the 500'? What is the final approach airspeed of the P-38? Are you saying that if you lose an engine above 500', you must push the nose over and trade altitude for airspeed to pick up your magic 120? Is this the intent of the 500'? Please explain.

5) If you don't have the RPM matched then you are turning... on the ground or in the air... big engine, big prop... it's just physics, lot's of torque. The counter rotating props don't really make a SE situation that much better. As I remember the Piper Seminole has counter rotating props and you don't notice much difference in mis-matched RPM in that airplane.

Excuse my ignorance here. Even though I have a multi-engine rating, I've never flown multi's with props, only jets. Are you saying that unless you have the RPM's exactly matched, that you still have some amount of torque?

More questions:

1) Also, can you explain about the combat flaps on the P-38? Are these the regular flaps, or some other flaps, external on the wing? Are there any P-38's flying with those?

2) If you do lose an engine on takeoff and you make the decision to go and take it in the air, are there any considerations about your ability to raise the gear with a dead engine? I'm assuming the gear is hydraulically activated? How is the hydraulic pump on the P-38? Is it tied to an operating engine? Would it be possible that you might not be able to raise the gear, single-engine, in a "go" mode? Would the gear raise slower than normal, if this were the case?

3) What is the Dash One limit on the number of G's you can pull on the -38?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer these, this discussion is MOST fascinating to me!

[hsperdue]

3) Again 120 is the magic number... but as far as flying the pattern is concerned if you are configured the airplane will not maintain level flight... below 500' you don't have enough altitude to attempt a go around... with Full Flap you are committed to land... don't screw it up.

So, if I understand this correctly, here is what you are saying. Anytime the airplane is configured (i.e. gear and flaps), no matter what airspeed you have, the airplane will not be able to maintain level flight under any conditions, correct? Is this regardless of flap setting also?

What is the significance of the 500'? What is the final approach airspeed of the P-38? Are you saying that if you lose an engine above 500', you must push the nose over and trade altitude for airspeed to pick up your magic 120? Is this the intent of the 500'? Please explain.

5) If you don't have the RPM matched then you are turning... on the ground or in the air... big engine, big prop... it's just physics, lot's of torque. The counter rotating props don't really make a SE situation that much better. As I remember the Piper Seminole has counter rotating props and you don't notice much difference in mis-matched RPM in that airplane.

Excuse my ignorance here. Even though I have a multi-engine rating, I've never flown multi's with props, only jets. Are you saying that unless you have the RPM's exactly matched, that you still have some amount of torque?

More questions:

1) Also, can you explain about the combat flaps on the P-38? Are these the regular flaps, or some other flaps, external on the wing? Are there any P-38's flying with those?

2) If you do lose an engine on takeoff and you make the decision to go and take it in the air, are there any considerations about your ability to raise the gear with a dead engine? I'm assuming the gear is hydraulically activated? How is the hydraulic pump on the P-38? Is it tied to an operating engine? Would it be possible that you might not be able to raise the gear, single-engine, in a "go" mode? Would the gear raise slower than normal, if this were the case?

3) What is the Dash One limit on the number of G's you can pull on the -38?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer these, this discussion is MOST fascinating to me!

Question 3): The book says that if you are fully configured (Gear and Full flaps, below 500') you must make the landing (it further states that at rated power 44"/2600 rpm it will barely hold altitude with gear down and flaps up, it will not hold a level altitude with any flap extension). Gear speed is 175 mph, maneuver flap is 250 mph, full flap is 150 mph. The point is that below 150 mph you do not have enough flight control authority to use the power required to go-around... you will torque roll and kill yourself. The 500' number allows for sink at reduced power (less than full throttle) while you clean up... the book also says for a go-around "Do not turn until flaps are up.' 500' should give you enough altitude to survive... if ever you slow below 120 on the approach (unless you have the runway made) you are crazy. Downwind is 150 mph, 130 to start final, 90-100 in the flare.

Question 5): Well, you have not flown multi jets slow enough with big enough fans<g>.... you get torque out of a jet engine as well... I seen it<g>. The bigger the prop, the higher the speed of rotation, the more powerful the engine... the greater the torque result... it's one of them laws of physics. In a small airplane with low power and short props the moment arm is very small and the effect of mismatched rpm is not great... the Allison's on the P-38 are very big... the props are taller than me... rpm relate directly to torque and thrust... and the electric props on the P-38 are slower to react than hydromatic props. Make sense?

1) Combat flaps are Maneuver Flap... 1/2 flap... even Glaicer Girl (P-38F) has a half flap setting... very easy to select... but going from maneuver flap to full flap requires a brief stop at fully retracted, pull the guard then pull the flap lever all the way back to full... bit of a hassle. There is a 'Dive Recovery Flap' which was installed on late model J's and the L model... Ruff Stuff will soon be the only one flying with Dive Flaps.

2) The gear is indeed hydraulic, lose an engine not a problem... there is even a handpump... lots and lots of strokes though to cycle the gear.

3) The g limit is 6 at 400 mph.

gunny

[CH2Tdriver]

quote "There is a 'Dive Recovery Flap' which was installed on late model J's and the L model... Ruff Stuff will soon be the only one flying with Dive Flaps. " end quote

Scott or anyone can answer this one;

On the Jeff Ethel Roaring Glory DVD on the P-38, during the pre-flight he demonstrates the deployment of a 'triangular' looking device on the wing bottom that he mentions was used to get out of a high speed dive. Is that what is being mentioned here?

(I guess that was the Tillamook example which is probabably considered non-airworthy at present?)

Pete

[51fixer]

quote "There is a 'Dive Recovery Flap' which was installed on late model J's and the L model... Ruff Stuff will soon be the only one flying with Dive Flaps. " end quote

Scott or anyone can answer this one;

On the Jeff Ethel Roaring Glory DVD on the P-38, during the pre-flight he demonstrates the deployment of a 'triangular' looking device on the wing bottom that he mentions was used to get out of a high speed dive. Is that what is being mentioned here?

(I guess that was the Tillamook example which is probabably considered non-airworthy at present?)

Pete

That is the dive recovery flap. Developed because the P-38 had a nasty habit of being difficult to pull out of dives.
Rich

[51fixer]

2) The gear is indeed hydraulic, lose an engine not a problem... there is even a handpump... lots and lots of strokes though to cycle the gear.

gunny

My arm is still sore from pumping the gear down. The handpump has 2 separate systems built into it. Normal and emergency. On the 38 it actually takes more work to pump the gear down than up with the normal system. There is a check valve IIRC that takes 600psi before the gear uplocks will pull. This allows the gear doors to fully open before the gear legs move. It has been since the early 90s since I worked on them so I hope I have this right.
They developed the handpump with a valve the pilot can select that switches to a separate hyd system for emergencies. It has its own hyd reservoir and lines to the actuators. The return hyd fluid will overfill the normal hyd tank and vent overboard as the gear moves. The gear legs will push the gear doors out of the way and there is no restrictor or chack valves in the emergency system. The emergency reservoir is normally bolted to the cockpit floor behind the pilots seat. On the POF 38 in order to allow the passenger a spot to ride I used a turbocharger oil tank and moved it into the nose and replumbed the supply line.
Rich

[marine air]

Hello Gunny,
Congratulations on your recent accomplishment! "Luck is opportunity met with preparation." You certainly have a tremendous background. A couple of questions;
1) When you did part of the checkride in the Baron, was that to demonstrate IFR proficiency, or just the engine out type manuevers?
2) Do you have any limitations on your P-38 type? and what are they?
The reason why I ask is because I got my P-51 and T-28 LOA's several years ago, and a few years after that, when the FAA reissued my certificate, it had VFR limitations on these two even though I was IFR rated. IFR was not part of the curriculum at the time of the checkrides.
You may not ever want to fly the P-38 in IFR conditions but it's irritating on my license that one of these days I will have to pay a lot of money to do another checkride, maybe at Stallion 51 or wherever to get this restriction removed.
Semper Fi,
"Marine Air"

[hsperdue]

quote "There is a 'Dive Recovery Flap' which was installed on late model J's and the L model... Ruff Stuff will soon be the only one flying with Dive Flaps. " end quote

Scott or anyone can answer this one;

On the Jeff Ethel Roaring Glory DVD on the P-38, during the pre-flight he demonstrates the deployment of a 'triangular' looking device on the wing bottom that he mentions was used to get out of a high speed dive. Is that what is being mentioned here?

(I guess that was the Tillamook example which is probabably considered non-airworthy at present?)

Pete

That is the dive recovery flap. Developed because the P-38 had a nasty habit of being difficult to pull out of dives.
Rich

That is indeed the Dive Recovery flap on the video... the reason the P-38 is difficult to 'Pull Out of Dives' is due to Compressibility... The DR Flap changes the pitch moment and adds drag... making the elevator effective again.

gunny

[hsperdue]

Hello Gunny,
Congratulations on your recent accomplishment! "Luck is opportunity met with preparation." You certainly have a tremendous background. A couple of questions;
1) When you did part of the checkride in the Baron, was that to demonstrate IFR proficiency, or just the engine out type manuevers?
2) Do you have any limitations on your P-38 type? and what are they?
The reason why I ask is because I got my P-51 and T-28 LOA's several years ago, and a few years after that, when the FAA reissued my certificate, it had VFR limitations on these two even though I was IFR rated. IFR was not part of the curriculum at the time of the checkrides.
You may not ever want to fly the P-38 in IFR conditions but it's irritating on my license that one of these days I will have to pay a lot of money to do another checkride, maybe at Stallion 51 or wherever to get this restriction removed.
Semper Fi,
"Marine Air"

1) I did instrument approaches in the Baron to lift the 'VFR Only' restriction
2) No limitations

[marine air]

thanks

[warbird1]

2) The gear is indeed hydraulic, lose an engine not a problem... there is even a handpump... lots and lots of strokes though to cycle the gear.

Gunny, awesome info, thanks a lot! But some more questions/clarifications:

I'm still confused on the above quote. So, if you lose an engine on initial takeoff, do you have to do anything different to raise the gear? Are you saying the handpump is needed in this situation or is it just for a total hydraulic failure?

Also:

1) Were any of the flaps on the P-38, whether combat, manuevering, or dive recovery - fully automatic? In other words, would any of those come out without the pilot activating any kind of control in the cockpit? Or do they all require manual activation?

2) If you have to do a manual bail-out, what are the chances of hitting the empanage section? I've always wondered how hard it would be to bail-out in between the tailbooms and horizontal stab.

3) For the surviving, flying P-38's, when you take passengers for a ride, what is the little space like behind the pilot? I've never seen a picture of how that setup is. I've heard that it's some kind of shelf, or platform, but is there an actual seat there? Does it even have a seatbelt? Has anyone done anything in that space for passenger accomodations, or is it just a "sit at your own risk with no seatbelt" kind of settup?

4) What is the redline airspeed of the P-38?

5) For your checkout in the P-38, was your initial solo considered your checkride, or did you get a few "waivered" solo flights prior to the checkride? When you did fly the P-38 on both the solo and checkride, did anyone fly formation with you in a chase position? How do they do checkrides in single cockpit airplanes?

6) How did you get the opportunity to be allowed to check out in the P-38? Do you have friends or connections with the owner of "Ruff Stuff"?

Gunny, I know you're probably tired of answering my numerous questions, but I'm almost done!

[hsperdue]

2) The gear is indeed hydraulic, lose an engine not a problem... there is even a handpump... lots and lots of strokes though to cycle the gear.

Gunny, awesome info, thanks a lot! But some more questions/clarifications:

I'm still confused on the above quote. So, if you lose an engine on initial takeoff, do you have to do anything different to raise the gear? Are you saying the handpump is needed in this situation or is it just for a total hydraulic failure?

Also:

1) Were any of the flaps on the P-38, whether combat, manuevering, or dive recovery - fully automatic? In other words, would any of those come out without the pilot activating any kind of control in the cockpit? Or do they all require manual activation?

2) If you have to do a manual bail-out, what are the chances of hitting the empanage section? I've always wondered how hard it would be to bail-out in between the tailbooms and horizontal stab.

3) For the surviving, flying P-38's, when you take passengers for a ride, what is the little space like behind the pilot? I've never seen a picture of how that setup is. I've heard that it's some kind of shelf, or platform, but is there an actual seat there? Does it even have a seatbelt? Has anyone done anything in that space for passenger accomodations, or is it just a "sit at your own risk with no seatbelt" kind of settup?

4) What is the redline airspeed of the P-38?

5) For your checkout in the P-38, was your initial solo considered your checkride, or did you get a few "waivered" solo flights prior to the checkride? When you did fly the P-38 on both the solo and checkride, did anyone fly formation with you in a chase position? How do they do checkrides in single cockpit airplanes?

6) How did you get the opportunity to be allowed to check out in the P-38? Do you have friends or connections with the owner of "Ruff Stuff"?

Gunny, I know you're probably tired of answering my numerous questions, but I'm almost done!

Hydraulic- you don't need to do anything differently... pull the gear handle up... the Hyd system is a low pressure system with pumps on both engines, the hand pump will work in normal or emergency, but it is only used if the pumps fail...

-Flaps are all manual, landing/maneuver and Dive

-Bailout, everyone would be manual because there were no ejection seats ... lots of controversy about hitting the horizontal during the war... the key is don't standup, just slither/dive out downwash will help you miss, or roll inverted and drop out. THe interesting thing is that there is just as much danger of hitting the tail in any fighter... they physics are the same

-I know that 23 Skidoo can take folks up for a 'Buddy Ride'... you sit behind the pilot on the shelf, no seat, small seat belt, no space, bent over.. I almost did it, wasn't actually looking forward to it.. airplane problem prevented it. GG and Ruff Stuff have no provisions for a rider, I don't know about the other one, or the Old Putt Putt Maru (being redone at Stallion 51), I've seen the Red Bull 38 and see no provisions for a rider.

-Redline speed about 424 mph IAS, speed in a dive is 420-460 TAS at 10k', 290-440 TAS at 30k' all for compressibility

-I could have flown it before the checkride, but it didn't work out that way. I was solo for the checkride, the check pilot was on the ground watching and talking to me on the radio, I did all my maneuvers over the airport at a safe altitude... no chase (although that is an option).

-I've known the owner for a long time, see my first post.

Hope this helps,
gunny

[51fixer]

Hydraulic- you don't need to do anything differently... pull the gear handle up... the Hyd system is a low pressure system with pumps on both engines, the hand pump will work in normal or emergency, but it is only used if the pumps fail...

-Flaps are all manual, landing/maneuver and Dive


-I know that 23 Skidoo can take folks up for a 'Buddy Ride'... you sit behind the pilot on the shelf, no seat, small seat belt, no space, bent over.. I almost did it, wasn't actually looking forward to it.. airplane problem prevented it. GG and Ruff Stuff have no provisions for a rider, I don't know about the other one, or the Old Putt Putt Maru (being redone at Stallion 51), I've seen the Red Bull 38 and see no provisions for a rider.


Hope this helps,
gunny

The dive recovery flap system is electric and the switch is mounted on the control yoke so the pilot doesn't have to move anything but a finger. The switch was L shaped IIRC. Pull out aft to deploy and push in to fair. It is pretty fast acting. The motor/gearbox mounts in an inspection panel hole and the flap hinge mounts along a row of existing nutplates which hold the leading edge to the spar.
The wing flaps are hyd and I have described their operation in a discussion with Gary and his PV-2. The J that POF has is an early, I think -10 or -15, and didn't have a flap gauge in the cockpit. There is a flag device that the flap pushes on. It sticks up out of the wing skin when the flap is deployed anything beyond full up. In essence you had 2 positions of deployment that were known, maneuver and full down. Anything else on this model is a guess. I think earlier models had a position sender and gauge in the cockpit. I don't know if later J's and L models had a cockpit gauge.
Many P-38's were built with the generator and hyd pump only being on the L/H engine. That was your critical engine cause you would lose electrical and hyd if you had to shut that engine down. The POF model had them installed on both engines during the restoration.
That is why the P-38 is a real complicated aircraft compared to many others and takes more work to restore and operate.
I did ride in the POF P-38. I actually modified it to be able to take passengers in the back. If it is still the same there is no seat, you sit on the spar and upper wing skins. It really isn't even a flat surface, more of a valley due to dihedral and the curve of the airfoil. There is a seat belt. The shorter you are the more comfortable you are. My torso is rather long so my chin was above the top of the seat. Turbulance wasn't much fun but it isn't too bad a ride. Very quiet compared to other fighters. A friend of mine called it an Oldsmobile as it is muffled by the turbo exhaust system.
Rich

[warbird1]

Many P-38's were built with the generator and hyd pump only being on the L/H engine. That was your critical engine cause you would lose electrical and hyd if you had to shut that engine down. The POF model had them installed on both engines during the restoration.

Wow, that could be real critical! It sounds like if you lost the #1 engine on takeoff with that setup, you wouldn't be able to raise the gear or flaps, and you were coming down regardless! I'm assuming, that in the interest of safety, that all P-38's flying would have both hydraulic pumps and generators on both engines. Is this the case? Are there any flying P-38's that don't?

Thanks for the info, Gunny!