Take that!! All You Bubble-Headed "D" Model Lovers

[visaliaaviation]

Physical realities: a P-51B/C fitted with a Malcolm Hood puts the effective top edge of the cockpit side just at the top of the upper longeron, at the seat armour. The D's effective cockpit side is 12" higher at the same location. It is also considerably narrower. So we are talking about restrictive sholuder movement. Add to this, the fact the first D's
(P-51D-5NA) with their then standard -2 canopy, which was rather flat sided in comparison to later types (all of full round section), we can appreciate that the pilot could not move his head appreciatelvely more in an early D than he could in the then standard green house of a B or C.

After experiencing the view afforded with the Malcolm Hood, perhaps, the first D's (at least in the view dept.) were viewed as a distinct step back? It should be noted that there is wide spread photo documentation indicating that MANY of the standard -2 canopies, on P-51D-NA's, got replaced. Some right away.

I, for one , await pilot's reports with great anticipation regarding Mr. Roushes' P-51B's first flights.

Mr Beck's insights (thanks DougR) into the LABOR and COST of the D's canopy vs B/C's could be VERY telling as to A prime reason the canopy decsion was made.

[51fixer]

Now here's my question. Given the amount of 51 projects out there, is it possible to convert a D into a C or B during its restoration? How hard would this be?

Or in other words: "Like Mr. T did with his B-17G-F configuration"

There is many differences. Some big and some small.
The wing is a different shape with a different leading edge from the landing gear to the fuselage. The ammo area is different as well as the gun bays. The lower cowling and leading edge fairings are different. The fuselage is different. The canopy is a nightmare for the bird cage. The landing gear operating and uplocks are totally different.
The tailcone is different.
But other than that its similar.
There is one of each in the hangar.

Rich

[Warbird Kid]

Thanks for the info and lucky you!

[JDK]

However, many pilots regarded the Malcolm-hooded P-51B/C as the best Mustang of the entire series. It was lighter, faster, and had crisper handling than the later bubble-hooded P-51D and actually had a better all-round view. Its primary weakness, however, was in its armament--only four rather than six guns, which often proved prone to jamming. Some of the modifications applied to the P-51D to improve the ammunition feed were later retrofitted into P-51B/Cs, which made their guns less prone to jamming. With modified guns and a Malcolm hood, the P-51B/C was arguably a better fighter than the P-51D, with better visibility, lower weight, and without the structural problems which afflicted the D. Its departure characteristics were also more benign.

Although the bubble-topped P-51D is far better known, the P-51B/C was actually the aircraft that turned the tide of the bomber war over Germany.

The P-51B/C remained the prime Mustang variant in service from December 1943 until March of 1944, when the bubble-topped P-51D began to arrive. However, P-51B/C fighters remained predominant until the middle of 1944, and remained in combat until the end of the war in Europe even after the arrival of large numbers of P-51Ds. Even as late as the last month of the war, 1000 out of the 2500 Mustangs serving in the ETO were of the P-51B/C variety.

The last P-51B passed out of service in 1949, having been re-designated F-51B in 1948.

Hi Shay,
Now THAT'S an interesting post. I've wanted to see that data for some time. Where did Baugher write that, and can anyone add to or challenge those stats?

There's two items here, IMHO.

a) Was the P-51B/C (with Malcolm canopy) 'better' than a P-51D. Depending on your definition of 'better' that's an interesting WIX type tech/aesthetic debate. (There's a sub clause - did the guys keep their earlier P-51s because the really knew they were better, or was it fight-pilot conservatism again?)

The one I find a lot more interesting is the one that always gets over-looked - b) The P-51B/C (of all kinds) was the Mustang type that was used for the hard graft when the still Luftwaffe was a major threat, and was the type that is overlooked in favour of the 'turned up late did less' 'glory-hunting' P-51D.

Numerous types are overlooked in favour of more glamorous, later, 'better' and less historically significant types. For instance the ultra-rare Lockheed Hudson is less known and thus recognised in warbird circles than the far less historically important, (but 'better' prettier etc. etc.) Lockheed Harpoon. Nothing wrong with the Harpoon, great aircraft; but it was the Hudson that stemmed the Axis tide 1939-42, and which was consumed by the war as a result. It was Hudsons that were used by incredibly brave men in penny packets against usually superior forces, but that don't read as well as a more 'impressive' aircraft with which we 'won' the war. (There's the tricky little question of current availability... )

Let's hear it for the types that where there when needed, but don't get the glamour miles - the P-40, Hudson, Baltimore and Maryland, Boston, Hurricane, Whitley, Wellington, SBD and even that early model P-51.

Thoughts?

Last edited by JDK on Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Hal B]

Question for anyone who flys or has flown in a "D". Due to the complex compound curves in the teardrop canopy design, has anyone ever notice any distortions while looking aft that could possibly had an adverse affect in combat?


Shay
_____________
Semper Fortis

While there is some distortion to the sides and rear of a "D" canopy that is noticable from the cockpit, I suspect that in the heat of battle the pilot would be too preoccupied to even notice. JMHO, however...

[JDK]

Thanks for the info and lucky you!

I don't know about luck, I suspect a good deal of hard work and dedication, perhaps a bit of self-sacrifice of weekends and evenings put 51fixer there.

[51fixer]

Thanks for the info and lucky you!

I don't know about luck, I suspect a good deal of hard work and dedication, perhaps a bit of self-sacrifice of weekends and evenings put 51fixer there.

Hey,
You been talking to my wife?
That is what she says!

A few issues back Warbird Digest did a feature story on Jim Beasley and PE and the family legacy behind the operation.

Rich

[JDK]

Hey, You been talking to my wife?

Not me, Officer. Must have been some other smooth-talking tall, dark and ~hem~ journalist.

I just look after fixers' PR.

[k5083]

Even as late as the last month of the war, 1000 out of the 2500 Mustangs serving in the ETO were of the P-51B/C variety.

Musing further, this statement sounds a bit funny to me as well. It really doesn't seem to square up with the photographic evidence. It is rare to see pictures of B/Cs that are clearly operational in the ETO as late as early 1945. Could it be that this statistic is a bit misleading in that those 1000 B/Cs either were weary airplanes used in support roles and not on ops, or perhaps long gone but just not struck off charge yet?

August

[Shay]

Where did Baugher write that, and can anyone add to or challenge those stats?

Here you go.

Joe's mainsite page: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/

The section pertaining to the P-51: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51.html

And more specifically the B/C variants: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_8.html





Joe's sources for all his facts:

Sources:


American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.

The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.

War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday 1964.

United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.

Fighting Mustang: The Chronicle of the P-51, William N. Hess, Doubleday, 1970.

Classic Warplanes: North American P-51 Mustang, Bill Gunston, Gallery Books, 1990.

Famous Fighters of the Second World War, Volume I, William Green, 1967.

The North American P-51B and C Mustang, Richard Atkins, Aircraft in Profile, Doubleday, 1969.

British Military Aircraft Serials, 1912-1969, Bruce Robertson, Ian Allen, 1969.

Excalibur III--The Story of a P-51 Mustang, Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, D. C., 1978.



Shay
_____________
Semper Fortis

[Jack Cook]

Also figure in P-51B/Cs still serving in Italy and in the CBI (lots!)

[51fixer]

Jim Beasely mentioned over on ASB that hile his C is faster, the D has better systems and seemed a little more stable, and in geneneral was more "sorted out", which seems reasonable as NAAsorted out and upgraded systems. Kermit Weeks mentioned to me he had a lot of trouble at first banging his head against the canopy sides on his C until he got used to it !!
Can't vouch for the above personally, I am sorry to say !

The 1st time I taxied PE as I bent forward to release the control lock I whacked my forehead into the gunsight. Then I knock the headset off trying to look out the small sliding side panels on the side canopies as I S turn. I'm not a pilot but it had to be a pain to constantly look around the framework.

In my rides in the D's I have not noticed any distortion looking through the canopy.

Almost all of the gear system parts in the wings are different between the B/C and D/K. The D is much simpler in design. The only common parts are the gear legs and the MLG hyd actuator.

In an effort to lighten the D in the design they changed the MLG system and eliminated the uplocks and associated linkage parts for the hooks. NAA intended to have the hyd system and the inner gear doors hold the gear up instead of a combination of hyd and mechanical locks on the lower gear legs as the earlier ones had. (up to B/C) They did blame some wing failures on gear extension during flight so added the up hooks in an emergency redesign. Although the D ended up with up locks as in the earlier models it was a totally different and simple installation as opposed to the B/Cs.

In this same time period it was also discovered that the early Ds had an over control problem with the rudder. (Light control forces) This resulted in horizontal failures with resulting in flight breakups. Multiple parts were changed and redesigned including the rudder trim tab screw jack, the horizontal was reinforced and the vertical fin fillet was introduced.

With these issues affecting a new model it is no surprise pilots were unwilling to give up the B/Cs for D's. Within a short time the fixes were in place and the D's showed what they were capable of.

Rich

[DougR]

51 Fixer talked about the gear door locks.....

Kermits airplane has additional main gear door locks on the front that our airplane, the CAF -C, did not have. They were operated by a cable system that looks kind of spooky, if they don't open you will land on the radiator....

What always concerned me is, if they retrofitted later -B/C airplanes with a better gear door lock, there was a reason.... I am told if the gear doors open up at high speed the wing would come off.

We discussed retrofitting the front locks and decided that the danger of the doors not opening was greater than the danger of them opening accidentally if we kept the speeds and G loads reasonable.

Tailwinds,
Doug

[51fixer]

51 Fixer talked about the gear door locks.....

Kermits airplane has additional main gear door locks on the front that our airplane, the CAF -C, did not have. They were operated by a cable system that looks kind of spooky, if they don't open you will land on the radiator....

What always concerned me is, if they retrofitted later -B/C airplanes with a better gear door lock, there was a reason.... I am told if the gear doors open up at high speed the wing would come off.

We discussed retrofitting the front locks and decided that the danger of the doors not opening was greater than the danger of them opening accidentally if we kept the speeds and G loads reasonable.

Tailwinds,
Doug

The C that John Muszala built for Max Chapman (War Weary TP) features D model MLG system in a C Model wing. It has a D inner gear hyd actuators at the rear instead of the large B/C actuator at the front of the inner door. It also has the D gear uplocks and linkage.
Rich

[Bill Greenwood]

I remember my first ride in a Mustang, a D model and the vivid impressions, first of the noise, then of the incredible visibility, and finally of the speed and heat. The Spitfire with the traditional high back has pretty good visibility above, as do the gliders I fly. Recently I flew a Cessna some and I felt so restricted in visibility as if I was in a hole, and I was always raising the wing to look under it.