Warbird Information Exchange

Ahhhh...the rest of the story. Have ya'll tried casinos?

_________________
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DBF

Hi all,

well there have been a few comments made about this subject and a couple of questions too. I'll try to address some. To answer Sparrow's comments about the actual number of MIA in Australia, I can say that Australia does not recognise any military personal as "Missing in Action". Rather the 'Gub ment' prefers the more soft approach and uses the official term as "Having no known grave". As for the number of missing, on the eastern zone of Australia, that is the East coast but including the Cape York and Gulf country there are over 750 names still not accounted for. And before someone jumps up and questions this, yes this does include alot of Merchant Sailors, who I refer to as the fourth service. Still there is a significant number of Military personnel missing, around 300. If you were to add the number of US personnel to this list we would get a figure closer to 1000.

Some people have suggested paying the traditional owners. This topic has been discussed and a 6 figure number was put to me. After I picked myself up off the floor and tried to make sense of this obsurd recommendation I was further advised that if I made a significant donation to the lake management fund this would be seen as favourable. Still no guarantee of getting onto the lake. The problem I have with this, and I do admit this is more of a personal issue, is that I do not beleive I should have to pay to recover the remains of the fallen!. I have offered to pay all costs with regards the search and initial dive to confirm identification, but after that the matter would be referred to Airforce for further action. The problem here is that Airforce can not act unless there is evidence to support the wreck is located and that it contains the remains of the aircrew. Commonwealth War graves say it would be a war grave if it could located. So its a catch 22 situation. I know its there but have been denied the opportunity to locate it. Even if the remains were left in the lake, they should still be given the protection of the Commonwealth War Graves Act. I should also add that I have also had several meetings with individual elders who have expressed their concerns about the spiritual contradiction this refusal has created. One female elder becomes very emotional when she considers that they could be causing ongoing suffering to living relatives. All the same its a very complex situation, one which unless there is some kind of massive media attention, niether the traditional owners or the respective Govt agencies will do anything about.

cheers

Digger

Hello Mr Digger

I was reading though the net and came across this page. Are you the same person who came to speak to my Grandad about Spitfires?

I can remember him asking me to post letters to someone he said was trying to find an old war time friend of his. Grandad served at 2OTU during the second war and he flew Wirraways and the American Kittyhawk which he said he liked very much. His friends name was Arnott and I remember seeing you with Grandad in his workshop. He also told me he knew about the missing men in Lake Victoria and had wondered what had happened to them. He asked me to make sure you got some of his books from his flying records but he passed away in May 2003 and I didn't get an address. Can I send you a message to get these details?
Grandad wanted to help find these missing men because he had a relative who was killed in Papua and was never found. It realy upset him to talk about it because he said his parents family greeved for many years after the war. Grandads mother and aunty would try to look for the missing boy in old news reports at the cinema. I remember Grandad saying it was a terrible time and it was especially bad at his birthday and christmas.

Are the aboriginies not allowing them to be taken home for religious reasons? I think they should be sent home to their own families, so those families don't have to worry about them anymore.

Tasha McEwan

Hi tasha

yes that was me, I am so sorry to hear about big jack. I remember he made a potent home brew!

Your right, Jack did help me with research into Lake Victoria and the total number of aircraft that crashed there. He also provided me with a copy of his flight book which showed he flew A29-117 several weeks before Arnott
crashed and was killed in it. I took a piece from the crash site and gave it to Jack. The spitfire story I'll leave for another time on this forum. I still have some contact details so will write again soon.

As for your question about religion being a reason not to allow the recovery? its a good question and one which I can't really answer. I can say it has never been raised and given that one of the missing had a brother who was a Catholic priest, if it was an issue I am sure I would have made a point of addressing it. I think the emphasis of refusal was based solely on personal opinions rather than anything else. I have in writing concerns mentioned by one Government official who said he thought it improper to allow a private individual to conduct the search to which my answer was, 'we've waited 60 years for the Gov't and now we're getting impatient!'

Perhaps by using this forum I can educate others into action or even if people just tell their friends and they tell their friends the word will get out about this rediculous situation.

take care

Digger
(I was the better looking one of the two!)

Digger

Please contact me off board

Buz

Firstly, thanks to all those who have responded to this topic both online via this forum and via off line emails. To answer some further questions about what motivations are really behind the refusal of this proposal I went back through alot of correspondence and located the following comments made to me in written form;

For Ruge and Moore, unless their relatives wish otherwise, the lake is a fitting burial place because it is recognised as a major burial place and significant site to Aboriginal people, and will continue to be cared for

and then there is this amazing admission;

I believe that in the future they will become even more important,
especially in education and tourism programs, as people realise that the
20th century is now 'history'.

I have made some inquiries about eco tourism projects and it would seem that this is definately an intention of the Lake's Committee. It would seem that the committee does not wish to have the aircrew or any wrecks recovered because it would impact on their intended eco-tours. In other words, these airmen are seen as nothing more than exhibits. The crew are being denied an honourable burial because some academic thinks its better for them to used as items in a freak show!.

To further support this interpretation is this explanation;

What's left is in one sense 'junk' - broken
pieces of metal. Collected and put in a shed somewhere, it really is just
junk, out of context; but visit it where it lies, in an isolated corner
along the Murray, and you really understand the tragedy of these young men loosing their lives so far from home, but before they even had a chance to fight. The meaning and importance of the relics of the crashes lie in their setting - fragments of war scattered over the pastoral outback
paddocks

I have further information that indicates that during the environmental impact study conducted as part of the traditional assessment, wreckage of an unknown aircraft was located and photographed. When I became aware of this I requested that this information be provided to the Dept of Defence - Airforce so that they could make an assessment of the aircraft type. If it was the missing wirraway it could be determined what happended to the aircraft, ie is it in one piece or did it disintergrate on impact. To my knowledge this information has not yet been provided and is being withheld from authorities.

As more information comes to light I shall update this topic.

once again thanks

Digger

How about the freedom of information act Digger? surely the environmental impact study is not classified? if it is then perhaps a discrete phone call to the greenies? I am sure if it is classified they'd like to know why. and if they find out nothing then that would make them curious what is being hidden I should think. besides, even if they fail at nothing else than getting it released, still makes it available for you and then you can literally hand deliver a copy, if needs be, to the air force.

I find it incredible that the wreckage could be photographed by the people doing the environmental impact study and yet you can not access the foreshore. did they do all this via helicopter ( wind erosion due to rotor wash I should think ), hovercraft ( same ), outerspace ( low definition images and hard to assess a number of other things like temperature and wildlife condition ) or what?

you mentioned ecotourism before that. How is that going to affect the tribal situation there? you might try arguing that ecotourism would be far more detrimental to the sacred site status than having those airmen removed and given a fitting and proper burial.

best of luck at this mate.

What I find most disturbing is the fact that the air crew cannot be recovered due to this so called 'sacred site'. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm always sceptical when sacred sites are mentioned, look at all of the false claims that were lodged when the courts announced that they were not going to accept any more claims. Thats my rant, now back on topic.

How would you like it if a police officer or the like came to your door to notify you that someone in your family had been killed? And they told you that they know exactly where the body is but you cannot visit, view or go anywhere near it and if you try to recover the body you will be charged with tresspass?

This is EXACTLY what the situation is here. There are possibly human remains out there of persons who did not choose to become part of a possible Aboriginal burial site, why should they be left there if their families want them to be returned?

They need to be returned to their families so that they can have a burial in accordance with the families wishes, not the burial practices of another culture. I would have no problems if the family wanted them to stay there, however I'm sure that they dont want them to remain there.

I have kept an eye on this forum and use it as a source of reference. Many topics discussed in popular aviation magazines are expanded here. However, when I first saw this topic I must admit I had some reservations about the situation being discussed. I have since made other inquiries and discovered to my horror that this is in fact...a true story! It has been covered in some minor newspapers and I think there is some reference to it via the ABC television network. All can be located on the internet via various search engines.

It is unbeleivable to me, as an ex serviceman of this country that the remains of two WW2 airmen can be left behind or left unrecovered because of some apparent fear of upsetting a group of people who have established a reputation, internationally as well, for being spiritually motivated and focussed on the needs to keep their ancestors in accordance with their cultural beliefs.

Have I read the information correctly, has the families requested the return of these airmen? if so whats th hold up? I know from previous experience that the Department of Defence is obligated to do something about this if the familes have requested action. Even if the Airforce contacts the people responsible for conducting the environment study and requests copies of all information on any wrecks known to them or located by them, surely this would add some important information to the where abouts of the missing aircraft.

I also find it very distressful that the federal govt, who must be aware of this situation, have remained silent about this proposal. Given we have a prime minister who is so eager to send troops off to a war which we find now is based on lies and false information. In addition to this, our prime minister is so keen to get involved in any memorial service that involves ANZAC's whether from Gallipoli or Kakoda. You can watch our nightly news reports and see with monotonous regularity our PM or other high ranking politician laying a wreath somewhere in the world.

I am not a racist but if this Govt can spend so much tax payers dollars on the return of aboriginal bones from overseas museums, then why can't they support this search. Its my understanding that they would not have to pay to much as Digger has implied he has already covered costs and is prepared to spend more. Whats the problem here?

Why don't we all get together and demonstrate!, or we could even send letters to our local pollies? or we could telephone our local television and or radio broadcasters and ask them why this is going unattended? or, perhaps sadly, we can sit back and do nothing for another 60 years and perhaps ponder on what could have been, but more likely we will dedicate more time and effort to discussing why our test cricket is being broadcast on pay tv instead of the commercial stations.

We really are a sad bunch!

David K.

Well,
If a campaign is required, then so be it.
Here are a few e-mail addresses for WIXers to start with.

Prime Minister of Australia
http://www.pm.gov.au/email.cfm

Senator the Hon. Robert Hill, Defence Minister
ministerfordefence@defence.gov.au

Leader of the Opposition. Mr Mark Latham MP
M.Latham.MP@aph.gov.au

Shadow Minister Defence and Homeland Security R.McClelland.MP@aph.gov.au

Perhaps Digger could add a few more directly related addresses.

_________________
Regards,
R.J.Mitchell

Save time, just write one big message and 'cc' all the others, that way the PM see's Latham has it and so on........ooh what a darn good idea.

Thanks for that

cheers

Digger