Vampire value?

[Mark_Pilkington]

C.6-60 Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:02 am Post subject:

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Airworthy would bring $50,000-$60,000 U.S.D. Tops!

As I said earlier my $150k - $200k USD was simply an opinion, but it was based on some earlier research of the market at the time of proposed donation of an F5 example.

Unfortunately of 8 website links I found at the time for use in benchmarking the F5 value for possible tax deductable donation to our museum, only 2 remain, however they still support my $150k value rather than the $50k-$60k values?

Obviously the interest in Vampires, and single seat examples, will be higher in the UK, Australia and NZ where there are operational history, as against the USA.


Current 1/20 share of the twin seat T11 Vampire "WZ507" in the UK is 3740 UK pounds or 74800 UK pounds for 100% of the shares?

On todays published UK-USA exchange rate of 1.9883 that comes to $148,725 USD to purchase all 20 shares?

http://www.vampirepreservation.org.uk/ownership.htm



The NZ example I referred to above is still listed at $175,000 AUD,

with the current Aust - USA exchange rate of 0.9291 that comes to $162,592 USD

http://www.planeshop.com.au/planes/DH-100-Single-Seat-Vampire/index.html

As I said earlier, the real market value of the aircraft concerned, as with all things, is the highest price someone is willing to pay, or the lowest price the owner will accept.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Centerline]

OK. You asked for it.

The wood is killer and always a problem even in the best aircraft. The engine mount is also wood. As they say if the termites let go while pulling Gs heaven help the pilot.

Right now in the US a fully licensed and in annual fly Vampire or Venom would sell for what you could get (not much) maybe $20,000 to $70,000 USD, with most below $40,000. Your much better of donating to a museum for tax reasons.

There are currenlty two fair to nice vampires for sale in the US asking price low 40s....no offers in two years. One guy wants $95,000 for a Venom in good shape, no takers. he will own that one forever, or until he figures it out.

Now a rotted, negleted Vampire or Venom you might get $3,000 for parts to support another one that's flying. Or maybe pay someone $2,000 to take it away to support their flying vamp and just to get it off your ramp.

If you have a Vampire or Venom that's fair but has not flown in several years but has been dry and stored inside...maybe $15,000 to $25,000...maybe

Sorry!! The jet warbird market in the US is way down, due to fuel prices and limited people able to fly these aircraft. If you want to get into jet warbirds, get a metal airplane. The de Havillands are for a few museums and a small group of collectors who don't mind spending 10x what its worth to fly one for other reasons.

PS - all of this assumes the aircraft is in the U.S. with an FAA N number and all paperwork complete. Otherwise, no value at all to US collectors as import and paperwork costs would far exceed market value and be too much work.

[JDK]

The wood is killer and always a problem even in the best aircraft. The engine mount is also wood.

Wow, that's clever. Presumably the engine also burns sawdust? Perhaps you mean the engine mounting is attached to the wooden pod. Just because it's unfamiliar (and maybe thus scary) doesn't mean it's bad or dangerous. There's significant hours of civilian Vampire ops, inc aerobatics, outside the US and I don't recall any structural failures of any kind.

A properly maintained wooden aircraft which is properly looked after is no worse than an equivalent tin one. However, it seems that in the US anyone interested in post 1940 aircraft regards wood as some kind of satanic device to confuse good sheeties. Finding fast-jet woodworking LAMEs is a trick anywhere, but ignorance by many breeds 'giving a dog a bad name and hanging it'.

Sorry!! The jet warbird market in the US is way down, due to fuel prices and limited people able to fly these aircraft. If you want to get into jet warbirds, get a metal airplane. The de Havillands are for a few museums and a small group of collectors who don't mind spending 10x what its worth to fly one for other reasons.

I'd agree that the supply outstrips demand, and with no US history, a Vampire or Venom is going to be outside the popular items there anyway.

PS - all of this assumes the aircraft is in the U.S. with an FAA N number and all paperwork complete. Otherwise, no value at all to US collectors as import and paperwork costs would far exceed market value and be too much work.

And in the rest of the world, those currently operating their Vampires and Venoms are very happy with them, by and large. The fuel prices are a lot tougher in Europe and the UK than US users have ever encountered, and certainly have knocked back jet ops significantly, but you weren't going into jets because they were cheap, were you?

Like piston warbirds did in the 1950s and 1920s, there's a triage going on with jet warbirds at the moment weeding out the less well-heeled people playing and leaving dedicated owners in the game.

There are currently several airworthy (and currently flying) Vampires in Australasia. (I was watching Judy Pay's last weekend.)

Temora two-seater & Meatbox.


Their value? Not for sale, AFAIK, but not likely to change hands for big figures.

[T33driver]

The wood is killer and always a problem even in the best aircraft. The engine mount is also wood.

Wow, that's clever. Presumably the engine also burns sawdust? Perhaps you mean the engine mounting is attached to the wooden pod. Just because it's unfamiliar (and maybe thus scary) doesn't mean it's bad or dangerous. There's significant hours of civilian Vampire ops, inc aerobatics, outside the US and I don't recall any structural failures of any kind.

A properly maintained wooden aircraft which is properly looked after is no worse than an equivalent tin one. However, it seems that in the US anyone interested in post 1940 aircraft regards wood as some kind of satanic device to confuse good sheeties. Finding fast-jet woodworking LAMEs is a trick anywhere, but ignorance by many breeds 'giving a dog a bad name and hanging it'.

Sorry!! The jet warbird market in the US is way down, due to fuel prices and limited people able to fly these aircraft. If you want to get into jet warbirds, get a metal airplane. The de Havillands are for a few museums and a small group of collectors who don't mind spending 10x what its worth to fly one for other reasons.

I'd agree that the supply outstrips demand, and with no US history, a Vampire or Venom is going to be outside the popular items there anyway.

PS - all of this assumes the aircraft is in the U.S. with an FAA N number and all paperwork complete. Otherwise, no value at all to US collectors as import and paperwork costs would far exceed market value and be too much work.

And in the rest of the world, those currently operating their Vampires and Venoms are very happy with them, by and large. The fuel prices are a lot tougher in Europe and the UK than US users have ever encountered, and certainly have knocked back jet ops significantly, but you weren't going into jets because they were cheap, were you?

Like piston warbirds did in the 1950s and 1920s, there's a triage going on with jet warbirds at the moment weeding out the less well-heeled people playing and leaving dedicated owners in the game.

There are currently several airworthy (and currently flying) Vampires in Australasia. (I was watching Judy Pay's last weekend.)

Temora two-seater & Meatbox.


Their value? Not for sale, AFAIK, but not likely to change hands for big figures.

James,

There was a fairly recent example of a substantial section of wood coming off a Vampire's fuselage during an air show due to dry rot. I won't get into who, where, when etc. It was repaired not long afterward and flew on. I agree it's all about due diligence in maintenance when it comes to the soundness of construction, doesn't matter if it's wood, fabric, aluminum or whatever. In the USA it's a buyers market for jet warbirds right now and I'd put a ready-to-fly Vampire at $60,000-$75,000 USD. Fuel prices and the perception they're difficult to fly are valid reasons for the downturn in prices. WWII fighters are the "Rembrandts" of the warbird market and I don't see them getting cheaper unless tastes change with the turnover of generations years from now and interest in WWII aviation wanes. IMHO the Vampires and Venoms are solid, well-built aircraft and I wouldn't have any apprehension about flying the type so long as I knew they were well maintained like any other airplane I'd strap on my back.

[JDK]

There was a fairly recent example of a substantial section of wood coming off a Vampire's fuselage during an air show due to dry rot. I won't get into who, where, when etc. It was repaired not long afterward and flew on.

Can you go so far as to say within the US or outside? I'd not be surprised were that a US case, I would if it were in the UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and most of Europe, hence my asking.

I'm in no position to point a finger, but that's down to inadequate maintainence, rather than an unsound design. Your points are good, there. It amazes me that we are all prepared to take chances with our transport at times, beyond sense.

Otherwise I'd agree with your points! The 'fun jet' market is dying back, and we are seeing a shift to more serious players. As I say, that's not new in vintage aviation elsewhere.

Regards,

[T33driver]

There was a fairly recent example of a substantial section of wood coming off a Vampire's fuselage during an air show due to dry rot. I won't get into who, where, when etc. It was repaired not long afterward and flew on.

Can you go so far as to say within the US or outside? I'd not be surprised were that a US case, I would if it were in the UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and most of Europe, hence my asking.

I'm in no position to point a finger, but that's down to inadequate maintainence, rather than an unsound design. Your points are good, there. It amazes me that we are all prepared to take chances with our transport at times, beyond sense.

Otherwise I'd agree with your points! The 'fun jet' market is dying back, and we are seeing a shift to more serious players. As I say, that's not new in vintage aviation elsewhere.

Regards,

James,

It was in the US. I don't know what the typical US civil/FAA Vampire maintenance programs require in the way of inspecting the wood (it can vary by FAA region depending on the individual inspectors), but as a general rule they typically mirror the miltary and/or factory maintenance inspection schedules. This is true of most US civil experimental category warbird types. That begs the question...what was the RAF or RAAF or DeHavilland recommended inspection interval for the wood construction in a Vampire/Venom?

[JDK]

That begs the question...what was the RAF or RAAF or DeHavilland recommended inspection interval for the wood construction in a Vampire/Venom?

Knock on wood. If it sounds hollow, buy Sabre / Hunter.

I don't know. I'll ask, next time I'm bothering someone who might know!

[Centerline]

Don't get me wrong the vampire and Venom are great airplanes and true classic jets. JThus when I see rotting ones left outside it really hurts...what a crime. Anyway just saying the prices are down and the wood it a real issue. Several (not many) regularly fly in the US. They will be around for a long time I hope. However, I would not personally buy one simple due to the wood issues, although I fly one. I'd rather have a CT-133 (paul.....)

BTW. the engine is mounted to an oak beam behind the wood pod.

[daveymac82c]

So I've noticed this thread going for a while but never took the time to read the entire thing, just the first few posts. Now that I've read the whole thing I am kind of dumbfounded that a Vampire could be expected to only fetch $50,000 some-odd. There's something not quite right there in my opinion. Sure there's more supply than demand in the US market, but still.... Isn't a fairly well beaten up Cessna 172 also in that price range? Or say a Stinson 108?

It boggles my mind. If only I had the money. Does anybody want to help me out with giving a good home to one of these poor little jet fighters that nobody wants? They look so sad.

Cheers,

David

[JDK]

David - I'm told that buying one is the only 'cheap' experience in jet warbirds.

[DB2]

Knowing that the Swiss flew Vampires into the late 80s, what's the parts availability like for the Goblin engines? I've always been curious as to how reliable/maintenance-intensive these engines are, since they are truly first-generation turbojets.

I do think the 300 gph fuel burn of Vampires limits their appeal, especially in the US, as that thirst puts them in the same range as the somewhat "hotter" Mig-15s and the like.

[P51Mstg]

Other rare warbirds are valued under more populous aircraft. Its a matter of supply and demand. Irrespective of what a Vampire is, it didn't have any US history. There is no "romance" there.

Look at what F-86s are selling for as well as other jets. Costs of acquiring a jet is low, but its offset by the high cost of fuel ($4+ to $6 a gallon) and there are issues with maintenance (it takes a lot even on a simple jet and everything has to work).

I'd venture to say that every jet that is selling for a "low" price has some pretty serious "expensive" maintenance issues that go with it.

Seeing Iskra TS-11s for $30-50k (when they were $100k+ 10 years ago) is about normal. Also look at some of the other older jets, they just don't seem to sell. There has been a 2 seat Hunter for sale in FL for what seems like over a year for $200k which represents a good value, but there must be a reason why someone hasn't bought it.

I think you are going to see a few warbirds hit the market in the near future at "fire sale" price becase of mortgage problems at home. I already see some other toys getting hit.


Mark H

[P51Mstg]

DUPLICATE POST

Last edited by P51Mstg on Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[daveymac82c]

obviously from the stand-point of someone with absolutely no extra money to purchase any kind of airplane (except for those little foam ones with the blue plastic propellers) I suppose I am kinda silly to say:

"I wouldn't mind just buying a flying Vampire in order to preserve the historical value of it."

May have it as a ground running airplane. Then again, I think the urge to want to fly it would eventually take over me.

I suppose I would be a little bit like Bob Jenns with his Spitfire that he takes care of, but has not flown.

Cheers,

David

[JDK]

"I wouldn't mind just buying a flying Vampire in order to preserve the historical value of it."

Just about every UK and many Australian museums found themselves doing that, albeit static examples, but unless it was kept in reasonable conditions undercover...