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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:35 pm 
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I must admit I got a little choked up when I watched that Wildcat fly out of Olympia for the last time.

The first time I saw it was at Oshkosh '95 when it took warbird reserve grand champion.

It is a spectacular aircraft and I really wish it was still flying.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:51 pm 
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When John and Ray flew both Wildcats down to Salem for our show , their fly-bys were something special to see. Never again!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:35 pm 
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Jack Cook wrote:
Wouldn't it be a waste if Chuckie or Nine-O-Nine were grounded for
lack of spares and they were airworthy parts being wasted of the Belle?


NO! I fail to see where restoring a REAL combat vet to be as accurate as possible is wrong. If we are down to the last 4 engines for a B-17, then you are going to have a bunch of other B-17's grounded as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:43 pm 
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Jack,

Do you think we will ever see the FM-2 fly again, or will it have the same fate as the F4F? My hope is when the Museum of Flight gets their Wildcat done, Dimmers bird will grace the sky once more, but I have my doubts.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:47 pm 
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John's offered JCW the opportunity to fly it so I have hope!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:25 am 
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Jack Cook wrote:
Wouldn't it be a waste if Chuckie or Nine-O-Nine were grounded for
lack of spares and they were airworthy parts being wasted of the Belle?
I agree with you Jack.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:42 am 
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Mustangdriver...your attention to details in a restoration is to be commended, however, taken to the extreme, there would be no more heart transplants if the medical world wanted everyone planted in pristine condition. With the ever shrinking number of parts left for restoring warbirds, it seems ludicrous to use flyable parts on a static restoration.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:09 am 
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Mustangdriver, all is not as it seems at NASM. If they have to build a part at NASM or replace one , for instance a piston, I've been told that they will make one out of wood if they need to. NASM parts are not airworthy and are stamped NASM and the date so as not to confuse a future researcher 200 years from now. And yes, it is a waste to put airworthy parts on a forever static, though it may be easier for the restorer because less effort is expended getting the piece up to speed.

Say I have an F-4 in my museum, we get it without brake stacks, do we call up the mfg and get brandnew or do we acquire nonflyable rusty wornout rotors and stators ? WHO CARES,? The museum goer can't see beyond the first plate ! The aircraft certainly doesn't care because without 3000 lbs on a hydraulic system that's probably incomplete or 3000 lbs on a pnuematic system that is also most likely compromised they are never going to be asked to do any more that fill a hole or rotate slowly as the aircraft is repositioned once every 10 or 20 years!

Jack is right, the average museum goer couldn't look at an aircraft with open cowlings and tell you if the engine is complete or not. If done right I'll bet you couldn't either. Of course that brings me back around to the other side of the argument, there are non airworthy engines on statics all over this country, why, because by edict from Dayton the museums who might be able to keep things turning were barred from doing so. The others were just allowed to slowly turn to poo poo. Which is why many people say that a static is slowly going to go away, someone isn't constantly monitoring and upgrading its condition as they do with a flyer. Typically a static is worked to one degree or another and it's not touched again for many years. The museum staffs are too busy working on the next project to expend the energy and funds on aircraft already done.

Continual inspection and maintenance is where the difference is.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:45 am 
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Hmmm. Some good points shoring up personal preferences here.

A starting declaration: I've a lot of time for both the fliers and the static museums, provided they're doing as good a job as they can. But Both also have compromises.

Any airworthy warbird has compromises in terms of systems that aren't servicable as they aren't needed in civilian life, dummy guns, modern nav aids (hidden or not) and so on. The stuff that needs to work (engines, flight systems) does; but they'll be working using modern materials, which aren't original. All fine, but let's not kid ourselves it's like it was 'back in service'. The bonus is it flies, and can do was a non airworthy aircraft can't do, which is demonstrate some of it's operational capability. But again, there's an issue ducked here which is that it's 'part'. They don't demonstrate an actual strafing attack or bombing raid. You can't get the safety signoff. ;)

On the other hand, as RickH has pointed out, national collections like the NASAM substitute non-original non airworthy parts, clearly marked, where necessary, so the aircraft is as complete, representative and original as possible. This objective is a pot winning bonus, not the aim of a flying warbird.

The RAAF Museum is currently restoring and conserving a de Havilland Mosquito PR.XVI. (it's a real one, btw, rather than a B.35 pretending to be a PR. XVI, as the NMUSAF has...) The undercarriage, engine bearers, props are all original to that aircraft; they've been NDT tested (will they bear the weight for 50 years?) conserved so they are stable for that 50 years, and go back on. In 50 years you can look at the aircraft, in detail, and it is as original as was built by DH and as used by the RAAF as the conservators and restorers can do. It would be much easier, and prettier to take NOS parts, or airworthy parts for the aircraft, but they aren't part of that aircraft's history. As long as the hoses and cables are stable, they can be reused; it has slothead, not crosshead screws in the wood. Some of that can't be done with a flying warbird and other items are unnecessary.

Museums which have incomplete of badly document aircraft are failing in their job of preservation for future generations. They should strive to get good parts to complete the aircraft. Generally, they aren't competing with people flying the type, but sometimes it does happen.

I think we started with a modification for flying safety (new brakes) which when an aircraft goes into a museum is both a waste and misleading - the right type of original brakes should be fitted; in an ideal world.

It's not about 'fooling the casual visitor'. This isn't a concors or show; it's providing accrurate, properly preserved artifacts for our great grandchildren. We don't know that a Mosquito or F-4 Phantom will be flying in 2100, I hope so. But we should have properly preserved versions in museums, not shells.

Rick takes a cheap shot at the static museum's aircraft 'decaying' aircraft, which is sometimes fair comment. Speaking as one of the guys who helps clean the RAAF Museum aircraft, which were stabilised before going on show, so decay is minimal (and significantly slower than on an airworthy machine) that's not true of the top level museum. An active aircraft consumes parts, requires significantly more funding to maintain than a static one, and can be badly maintained as well, in some cases. Thankfully most operators are far beyond that today.

Engines. When the RAF Museum's B-17 flew into the UK, after it landed 'for the last time', its airworthy engines were swapped with time-expired examples on the flying B-17, Sally B. A win win, and perfectly good engines suiting each aircraft. The Aviation museum at Moorrabbin, Victoria, Australia, has a complete Bristol Beaufighter. THe Hercules engines were regularly run up until the 1980s. They are not for sale, as they are original to that aircraft as built and used. It may be disappointing, but the engines belong to them to do as they wish with (or not.) (This is my understanding. I may be wrong, but the scenario stands.)

Finally, if I may, restoring an aircraft 'to airworthy' as some kind of 'best' and then sticking it in a museum is generally absurd. By doing so you are junking a number of parts which go with that aircraft and are original; and you've compromised that aircraft's historical value. By all means fly it 'once' to prove it's airworthy (Shearwater Museum in NS, Canada did with their Swordfish) and it's a buzz for the restorers, and a great idea; but at least 25% of the work (and tons of paper) is wasted thereafter on what is a static machine.

I don't understand why so many people bang on as though we should have 'just static' or 'just flying' aircraft. For the foreseeable future we'll have both, doing different jobs, and complimenting each other's roles in history and commemoration. Just accept it, it's better than the alternatives anyway, surely? It takes a zealot or a m0ron to believe only one of the extremes is 'right'.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:16 am 
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I believe I read where NASM left in a busted up engine in thier Corsair, because it was "Original".

I also believe that with the price of overhauling an engine being what it is, then it does indeed not make economic sense to restore all of the components of an aircraft to airworthy standards simple to put it on display.

In my time with the Army we once spent a lot of time on an airframe to get it back into the air, only to have it flown to an outdoor display area; and left.

With the limited number of flyable compents available it makes little sense to use those components on a "display only" aircraft. This just drives up the price on the remaining components.

Of course this does not apply to such unique aircraft as the DO 335 where they are the sole example of thier type and hence the only application for the remaining parts extant.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:18 am 
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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:30 am 
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Wow! Rick is saying negative things about the NMUSAF again.. Who would have guessed that would have happened. I am not sure how the CF does it, but the NMUSAF restores it's aircraft to be a stock as possible. This is the second time you have mentioned taking short cuts on restorations. We try not to take them. I look at static and flyable restorations as equal. I guess that is the big rub here. One is not better than the other, and both deserve to be restored as such.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:51 pm 
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So you would not swap an airworthy part from a static aircraft with an identical non airworthy part from a flyer? And not Memphis Belle, she is special. I mean in more general terms.

Say the very last known airworthy part X is part of a beautiful static plane. That one part X is keeping the last known airworthy aircraft Y from flying. Should they not swap the parts then?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:24 pm 
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Django wrote:
So you would not swap an airworthy part from a static aircraft with an identical non airworthy part from a flyer? And not Memphis Belle, she is special. I mean in more general terms.

Say the very last known airworthy part X is part of a beautiful static plane. That one part X is keeping the last known airworthy aircraft Y from flying. Should they not swap the parts then?


Like I said in my first post, it just depends on the part. Lets say a flight control gauge, well then sure, it should be changed out. A blown engine? No. If a part is timed out, then it is different. But a blown engine. THat is pushing it. THis is all our own opinion though.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:50 pm 
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jmkendall wrote:
I believe I read where NASM left in a busted up engine in thier Corsair, because it was "Original".


That engine was beautifully restored (possibly one of the best engine restorations up to that time - 1980's - at the Garber facility). I wouldn't classify it as "busted up". It does have a cracked cylinder if I remember correctly. They elected to leave it as is since it would never be run again...

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