Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:48 pm
You know.....I went through the Engineering school at THE Ohio State University. While they do indeed preach the KISS principle you get a better project score if your work is involved and complicated, using as many processes as possible.
I worked in a National Research Center for awhile and we worked on a project that four Engineers and two Research Technicians were assigned to. There was a need on this project to shuttle some material from the main line to a secondary line. The Engineers came up with the very expensive, highly involved method; that certinally got the job done. One of the Research Techs came in early and installed a 2x4 with a Linear Actuator and solved the problem in about an hour and for Thirty Five dollars.
So; yeah, I think its OK to bust on the Engineers every once in awhile.
Joe
I worked in a National Research Center for awhile and we worked on a project that four Engineers and two Research Technicians were assigned to. There was a need on this project to shuttle some material from the main line to a secondary line. The Engineers came up with the very expensive, highly involved method; that certinally got the job done. One of the Research Techs came in early and installed a 2x4 with a Linear Actuator and solved the problem in about an hour and for Thirty Five dollars.
So; yeah, I think its OK to bust on the Engineers every once in awhile.
Joe
Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:52 pm
Why is that an odd statement? Do you remember the DC-3 in ALASKA markings that sat outside the MoF on the elipse? It's no where to be seen from the Museum grounds because its behind the MDC blast fence to the South, all rotted away from sitting for over 25 years in Seattles wonderful salt air and rain climate. Before it was hauled off you could just about put your finger through the skin it was so corroded, so the MoF now has placed the extremely rare and valuable DC-2 outside on the elipse.(makes sense to me)
If you visit the big aircraft airpark across E. Marginal Way S. (Gads but I'd love to give that address to 'Clive' in Mumbai) you will see that the only airframe there with climate controlled atmosphere is the CONCORDE because that was one of BA's stipulations on giving it to the MoF, everything else is left to the cycles of the weather and will eventually turn to gray dust.
Inside and protected is one thing, but corrosion never sleeps on things out in the elements, don't take my word for it, make a pass through Pensacolas backyard and see what salt air exposure does to aircraft.
I'm fairly certtain the exhaust stacks were just 'tacked on' with a few nuts and the prop hung to A)get it out of danger of being damaged for a while and B) to show everyone 'visual progress' 'see how close we're getting?' while everything out of camera range is still chicken wire and plaster, and they'll quite probably take it apart and stick it back together several times before its completed in 25 or so years, it only took them 29 years to rebuild the 247 on the 'rivet of the month' plan.
If you visit the big aircraft airpark across E. Marginal Way S. (Gads but I'd love to give that address to 'Clive' in Mumbai) you will see that the only airframe there with climate controlled atmosphere is the CONCORDE because that was one of BA's stipulations on giving it to the MoF, everything else is left to the cycles of the weather and will eventually turn to gray dust.
Inside and protected is one thing, but corrosion never sleeps on things out in the elements, don't take my word for it, make a pass through Pensacolas backyard and see what salt air exposure does to aircraft.
I'm fairly certtain the exhaust stacks were just 'tacked on' with a few nuts and the prop hung to A)get it out of danger of being damaged for a while and B) to show everyone 'visual progress' 'see how close we're getting?' while everything out of camera range is still chicken wire and plaster, and they'll quite probably take it apart and stick it back together several times before its completed in 25 or so years, it only took them 29 years to rebuild the 247 on the 'rivet of the month' plan.
Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:24 pm
engguy wrote:So how many years of college did the engineer have that designed that engines exhaust system and cylinder exhaust placement, and also the one that designed the cowling?
That is so typical. Yeah nothing beats higher education. LOL
You can actually thank the pressures of winning a war for part of the problems with the B-29 design. Due to promises made to Chang Kai-Chek and others to take the war to the Japanese at the earliest date, the design was "locked" by General Arnold and the USAAF so that production could begin. Boeing, Wright, and most of the other subcontractors needed much more time to perfect the airplane and systems (and redesign various aspects of the airplane) but they didn't have the luxury to do so. General Arnold was committed, and had to get the airplanes into combat at the earliest date possible, and complete redesign wasn't possible.
Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:32 pm
Static museums are not perfect but neither is the flying warbird community. How many rare planes have been lost in accidents vs. corroded away sitting in museums? They both have their place. I happen to prefer museums myself...
Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:02 pm
I don't know nuthin about much... But I have a LOT of opinions! 
But I believe if ALL's BOEING is doing is allowing the use of the building for MoF to restore the planes...
Then I SALUTE THEM!
I can say that as someone sweating out a lease on a hangar for a B17 that spent TOO many years out on various ramps.
That is why I am a pushy SOB about GETTING THINGS DONE NOW with my own people...
Whatever BOEING is able to do within their comfort level as a Publicly held Corporation I thank them for it...
While I hate to see DOC sit out on a ramp in Kansas, at least Boeing supported it while it was economically feasible to those who had to make the decisions.
As to whether MoF ever flys the B17 or the B29 again...
While my preferences are towards flying them I will make a deal...
I won't tell MoF to fly their planes if they don't tell the CAF to park theirs!
But I believe if ALL's BOEING is doing is allowing the use of the building for MoF to restore the planes...
Then I SALUTE THEM!
I can say that as someone sweating out a lease on a hangar for a B17 that spent TOO many years out on various ramps.
That is why I am a pushy SOB about GETTING THINGS DONE NOW with my own people...
Whatever BOEING is able to do within their comfort level as a Publicly held Corporation I thank them for it...
While I hate to see DOC sit out on a ramp in Kansas, at least Boeing supported it while it was economically feasible to those who had to make the decisions.
As to whether MoF ever flys the B17 or the B29 again...
While my preferences are towards flying them I will make a deal...
I won't tell MoF to fly their planes if they don't tell the CAF to park theirs!
Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:35 pm
Yep, I remember seeing her at Lowry, I think around 1990. It hadn't been that long since they pulled her out of China Lake but she wasn't looking all that bad, especially when you saw the photos they had of her when she first showed up there! One thing is for sure, she looks a lot better both in Seattle and when displayed in Denver than she did out at China lake!Bluedharma wrote:Great pictures!!!!!!
It has changed since Feb of 1992.
Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:47 pm
The Inspector wrote:Do you remember the DC-3 in ALASKA markings that sat outside the MoF on the elipse? It's no where to be seen from the Museum grounds because its behind the MDC blast fence to the South, all rotted away from sitting for over 25 years in Seattles wonderful salt air and rain climate. Before it was hauled off you could just about put your finger through the skin it was so corroded, so the MoF now has placed the extremely rare and valuable DC-2 outside on the elipse.(makes sense to me)
#1, Is that the Gooney bird remains laying on its belly down at the south end? Saw it last week, and boy is it in rough shape now.
#2. "it only took them 29 years to rebuild the 247 on the 'rivet of the month' plan"
Thank God I wasn't drinking anything when I read that or it'd been all over the desk and keyboard
I can just hear ol' George Junuea now...
Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:26 am
BMA, Boeing Management Association was the driving (?) force behind restoring the 247 using volunteer retired Boeing managers. (managers with air tools just a bit better than avionics types with air tools)
Boeing wanted it done in time for a milestone anniversary, it didn't even get close. Then attention was shifted to the next milestone anniversary (I believe 75th) and it didn't look like getting there either, so Boeing took the project away from the retirees and sent AOG guys to finish it in time to fly it for the 75th.
While myself and three other employees of TRAMCO helped disable the B-52G to meet the upcoming SALT 2 deadline (took us three weekends, the MoF had estimated 9-15 months) we went over to the resto facility to escape the snow and cold air and grab some coffee, the hanger was full of really really old guys all eating link sausages, pancakes, and eggs and relating tales like 'I seen old George Green a week or so ago, he ain't lookin' too good' this from a guy who had three hairs and two non aligning bad teeth and shook like a dog passing barbed wire.
Boeing had to do the same thing after their Chief 767 Test Pilot ran the 307 out of gas over Elliott Bay (why darn! I checked those tanks with a stick less than a year ago, the last time we flew it and it had plenty of gas)and darned near hit SALTYs a popular waterfront restaurant during the lunch hour in the process.
NASM told Boeing 'it BETTER be here on the agreed upon date or no soup for you' AOG to the rescue, in about 8 months they replaced or repaired everything damaged, sheetmetal, wiring, hydraulics, arrested salt water corrosion, inside and out (including replacing the one of a kind brocade sidewall fabric) and had it at U-H on time.
Heck, the guy who rebuilt the seats for the 247 took ten years (one seat a year) to do that task, when he was done he drove up to the facility, dropped the tailgate on his truck and without uttering a syllable, powerbraked out from under the seats and drove away-never to be seen again
Boeing wanted it done in time for a milestone anniversary, it didn't even get close. Then attention was shifted to the next milestone anniversary (I believe 75th) and it didn't look like getting there either, so Boeing took the project away from the retirees and sent AOG guys to finish it in time to fly it for the 75th.
While myself and three other employees of TRAMCO helped disable the B-52G to meet the upcoming SALT 2 deadline (took us three weekends, the MoF had estimated 9-15 months) we went over to the resto facility to escape the snow and cold air and grab some coffee, the hanger was full of really really old guys all eating link sausages, pancakes, and eggs and relating tales like 'I seen old George Green a week or so ago, he ain't lookin' too good' this from a guy who had three hairs and two non aligning bad teeth and shook like a dog passing barbed wire.
Boeing had to do the same thing after their Chief 767 Test Pilot ran the 307 out of gas over Elliott Bay (why darn! I checked those tanks with a stick less than a year ago, the last time we flew it and it had plenty of gas)and darned near hit SALTYs a popular waterfront restaurant during the lunch hour in the process.
NASM told Boeing 'it BETTER be here on the agreed upon date or no soup for you' AOG to the rescue, in about 8 months they replaced or repaired everything damaged, sheetmetal, wiring, hydraulics, arrested salt water corrosion, inside and out (including replacing the one of a kind brocade sidewall fabric) and had it at U-H on time.
Heck, the guy who rebuilt the seats for the 247 took ten years (one seat a year) to do that task, when he was done he drove up to the facility, dropped the tailgate on his truck and without uttering a syllable, powerbraked out from under the seats and drove away-never to be seen again
Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm
The Inspector wrote:
While myself and three other employees of TRAMCO helped disable the B-52G to meet the upcoming SALT 2 deadline (took us three weekends, the MoF had estimated 9-15 months) we went over to the resto facility to escape the snow and cold air and grab some coffee, the hanger was full of really really old guys all eating link sausages, pancakes, and eggs and relating tales like 'I seen old George Green a week or so ago, he ain't lookin' too good' this from a guy who had three hairs and two non aligning bad teeth and shook like a dog passing barbed wire.
I well remember those Saturday morning BMA breakfasts in the old restoration hanger; as they were sharing "their" hanger with us Corsair guys.
Just remember that one of these days we're going to be those "really really old guys" you're talking about...
Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:41 pm
Hal,
I'm already over the fence, but still dishin' it out! In the next few years I'm outta here and I'll be like Jerimiah Johnson, I'll strap the inlet fan from a JT-8 to my back and when someone asks 'hey mister, whats that thing?' I'll settle down there-but probably never get all the BMS 3-10 out of my veins
I'm already over the fence, but still dishin' it out! In the next few years I'm outta here and I'll be like Jerimiah Johnson, I'll strap the inlet fan from a JT-8 to my back and when someone asks 'hey mister, whats that thing?' I'll settle down there-but probably never get all the BMS 3-10 out of my veins