Mr. Winkie Goes To War

[Jack Cook]

He is only the top scoring USMC ace to the Marines. They consider him as such.

Generals Bob Galer and Marion Carl publicly called for the Marines to rightly proclaim Foss their top ace. When the Corps took no such position they both said they were ashamed at the lack of action.
Come on now Chris who do you feel is the top Marine ace.

[mustangdriver]

Really? I think it is Boyington. The truth is that people didn't like him. He didn't fit the mold as the stand up person. He was not. he liked to fight. Whether it was japanese, or other people in his unit. People say that the show was nothing like the unit. I for the most part agree, but comeon these guys didn't sit at attention when they weren't flying. I believe him to be alot of things, but a legend is among the top. it doesn't matter what I think or what that association thinks. The USMC says he is the top.

[Jack Cook]

Woa boy slow down you're going way off on a tangent here.
I'm not sure which association you're refering and I've not talking
about anything BUT the top ace deal. Whether you're Albert Einstein
and doing high level Calculus or Jethro Bodine doing Guzintas, 22+ 2
always will equal 24

[mustangdriver]

The USMC says 26 counting 2 more kills as an AVG member. I believe it.

[mustangdriver]

I see what you are saying, and to me it doesn't matter who got the top spot. Either Boyington or Foss are great fighter pilots and aviation legends.

[Jack Cook]

Remember the piece of burned toast with the image of the Virgin Mary on it that sold on ebay for $15,000
Oh yeah..........were's my wink'in PB avatar

[Bluedharma]

So this is not true????
He then rounded it up to 6????

There is some controversy surrounding Boyington's AVG victory claims. His official CAMCO account showed 3.5 for enemy aircraft destroyed, of which just one was an air-to-air victory. However, AVG records suggest that Boyington was short-changed of an air-to-air victory during his tour of duty at Mingaladon airport in Rangoon. Boyington also felt that the AVG staff wrongly calculated claims from a raid on Chiang Mai, Thailand. Six pilots were involved in a raid that supposedly destroyed 15 Japanese aircraft on the ground, giving each man 2.5 victory credits for the raid. Boyington apparently decided that the two pilots who flew top cover should not have shared in the bounty, though it was often the case that when a pilot was shot down victory credits were equally shared among all taking part in the raid. Boyington evidently calculated his AVG score this way:

Confirmed air to air victories: 2 (this is what the US military officially acknowledges normally)
Chiang Mai Raid: 3.75 (15 aircraft destroyed divided by 4 shooters)
Total: 5.75
He then rounded it up to 6, and convinced the Corps to officially acknowledge it. This was probably good for the Corps' image during the final days of the tour as Boyington neared the record of 26 victories held at the time by Joe Foss and Eddie Rickenbacker. He ultimately tied the record on the same mission in which he was shot down.

Boyington's total score recognized by the American Fighter Aces Association is 24: 2 with the AVG and 22 claimed with the Marine Corps.

Many sources, such as the back of the Bantam Books edition of his autobiography, claim that he shot down 28 planes (6 with the AVG, 22 with the Marines),

After the war, Boyington insisted on the term "victories" rather than "kills", and was known to lose his temper over the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Boyington#AVG_victory_claims

[Jack Cook]

Those are ground kills.
Alvin Jensen of the original VMF-214 destroyed 26 on the ground on 1 pass at Kahili AD on 8-28-1943 in addition to 7 in the air but unfortunately you'll never read about him.

Last edited by Jack Cook on Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[RyanShort1]

I don't know how relevant some of you will think this is, but just because you play things right, get good pr, etc... doesn't mean that all medals ever given have been equally deserved. Let me say that I wasn't there, and I don't really know on the Boyington issue, but it certainly SEEMS suspicious in the light of further research.
A GOOD friend of mine's father flew tankers in Gulf War 1. Did some pretty risky stuff including I think going in unescorted over enemy territory to rescue a group of A-10s who were apparently on fumes. I'm pretty sure there were some other things as well. My buddy said that his father thought it was his job, and didn't ask for anything or any medals, just had the satisfaction of doing his part. As a Christian he didn't think it was his duty to promote himself.
What bothered my friend (and he's a nice guy, so you'd barely know it bothered him) was that several of the other officers in the squadron also flew missions - many of them of a MUCH less serious nature - but wrote up nice descriptions of the "dangers" they faced and ended up with some nice medals. To the general public those medals would make it appear that certain pilots in the squadron were heroes - and others just ho-hum.

Ryan

[Jack Cook]

The medal issue Ryan is the topic of endless debate has are many other things. It all depends on the command you're under. Check the awards for the CBI guys. Very little in fact 50 hump runs equaled 1 Air Medal.
A 50 mission P-38 pilot returning from Africa or Italy usually wore the DFC and 7-11 Air medals. Frank O'Connor of the 354th FG flew 57 (approx) mission and received 20+ Air Medals most all for missions flown in fact most all 354th FG wheels had at least 15 AMs. By contrast my former neighbor Alex Currier flew 239 missions in New Guinea over 15 months with the 35th FG. He received DFC and 3 Air Medals and he flew 107 missions in Korea and received the DFC (for a YAK kill) and 2 AMs.
So 346 missons equaled 2 DFCs and 5 Air Medals.

[Jack Cook]

Capt Alvin Jensen VMF-214 Swashbucklers 33 kills KIFA F2H Banshee 5-20-1949 RIP

[mustangdriver]

So just so I understand we are now saying that the MOH is no big deal and that Boyington shouldn't have got it?

[Jack Cook]

The MOH is a huge deal Chris and you know it you pot stirrer.
But, what was PB's opinion of it

[mustangdriver]

What does it matter what he thinks of it. He got it. What did John Kerry think when he threw his purple hearts over a wall. many veterans don't think they should get what they do. Boyington always said that the real heroes did not come home. he said show me a guy who says he is a hero, and I'll prove he's a bum.

[Jack Cook]

Can we agrue John Kerry now