B-17s vs. Flak

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:24 am

tom d. friedman wrote:

the "K" on the tail is from the 447th bomb group..... the special "k"!!!

Indeed, the B-17 in the foreground is 43-37797 "American Beauty" of the 447th Bomb Group.

The plane believed to be 43-37706 IN-U of the 401st Bomb Group is the one whose fuselage is in the centre of the photo, bearing the letter U. Since my previous post I traced the only other xx-U marked B-17 with the 401st, 42-97947 SC-U. However, '947 was transfered to the 305th Bomb Group in 1945 for Project Casey Jones.

All the best,
Paul.

PS. Jack, e-mail on the way this afternoon.

Robbie Stuart · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:40 am

I don't know anything about this pic, a buddy of mine sent it to me???????

Those guys up front had to have never known what hit them.
Robbie

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:01 am

43-38172 of the 398th Bomb Group, 601st Bomb Squadron, flak hit on October 15th 1944 during a mission to Cologne.

http://www.398th.org/Images/Images_Aircraft_B-17/Text/43-38172-3O-P_19441015_JBk.html

Apparently the groove in the chin turret visible in the last photo in the link was caused by the shell, which detonated after passing into the nose compartment.

All the best,
PB

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:45 am

if the groove you are talking about is the one on the underside of the turret, that is the cut out for the breech of the .50 cal when the guns are raised.

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:32 pm

The large groove runs upwards from the dent at the bottom of the turret, continuing through the front edge of the floor panel where the bombsight would have been mounted.

Another account of the incident is at:
http://www.398th.org/History/Articles/Remembrances/Ostrom_FortressHome.html

All the best,
PB

TonyM · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:48 pm

TonyM wrote:

Jack Cook wrote:

B-17G 401st BG

B-17G 384th BG

B-17G 96th BG

B-17F 303rd BG
and a ...................

B-24H

I'd bet a skinny dollar that B-17G # 42-39785 of the 303rd BG (the fourth photo) is a mid-air collision rather than flak. My opinion.

TonyM.

Went downstairs and checked the AAF Aircraft Accident Microfilm ---

The airplane featured in the fourth photo (B-17G # 42-39785) was indeed involved in a mid-air collision as I suspected. The damage occurred as follows:

On 9 February 1944, B-17F # 42-29823 was performing a cross over maneuver to echelon in preparation to landing following a mission when B-17F # 42-29823's number-four engine/propeller collided with the tail of B-17G # 42-39785 (the airplane in the fourth photo). Both airplanes were able to land safely and there were no fatalities. There are photographs in the accident report and it is the same airplane with the same damage.

The airplane in the fourth photo, B-17G # 42-39785, was eventually lost on a combat mission on 22 April 1944.
B-17F # 42-29823 survived the war and returned to the US.

B-17G # 42-39785 (358BS/303BG) Pilot: 2Lt. Dale C. Headlee
B-17F # 42-29823 (427BS/303BG) Pilot: 2Lt. James H. Melton

See:
US Army Air Forces Aircraft Accident Microfilm
Call # 46322, February 9, 1944, Accident # 508

TonyM.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:53 pm

I wonder if Lt. DeLancey and Lt LeDoux are still around??
Their hometowns are 30 away in opposite directions.

Misterg97 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:50 pm

warbird1

Sorry for the delay in answering.
1) I don't know if it was common or not. In fact, I doubt if many crew members had their own cameras. My cousin was an amateur photographer before entering service.

2) The clips listed were part of a 200' roll of spliced 8mm film, some in color and some in B&W. They were intechangeable as far as I remember.

3) The films were transferred to VHS by a local camera shop in NJ around 2000. Don't remember the actual cost, but don't remember them being too expensive. From there I transfered them to DVD myself, adding WWII music from a CD set I have using Pinacle software.

4) NO, he died in 2000 and we had no idea to film existed until I was contacted by a Ball Turret gunner stationed with him at Ridgwewll

5) He flew his first 6 missions as a waist gunner and the last 29 as a Radio Operator. I have his log of all 35 missions.

6) I don't remember off hand what ATS was. Perhaps I can find it and get back to you.

thanks for viewing the posts as well as your questions and comments.

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:08 pm

ATS: Auxilliary Territorial Service.
Basically the women's section of the British Army.
Drivers, AA gun crews, dispatch riders etc.

All the best,
PB

Misterg97 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:15 pm

RAMC181,

Thanks ... I remember the driver definition .. saved me time of having to look back and dig thru old records.

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Misterg97 wrote:

warbird1

Sorry for the delay in answering.............

Thanks for the information, Misterg97. Your cousin was a true patriot and I thank him for his service. I appreciate all the information, that was very fascinating!

Django · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:15 pm

wow...

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:27 am

Quote:

I wonder if Lt. DeLancey and Lt LeDoux are still around??
Their hometowns are 30 away in opposite directions.

small world. A great story about Ledoux in todays paper!!
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20081110/COLUMN0807/811100320/1001/NEWS&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:15 am

Robbie Stuart wrote:

I don't know anything about this pic, a buddy of mine sent it to me???????

Those guys up front had to have never known what hit them.
Robbie

Good god.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:32 am

Read the story the nav just passed away in the 90s.

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B-17s vs. Flak

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