Warbird Information Exchange

So what identity should it be Norman?

Anyway, some pics of G-HHII from today...

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Awfully nice aeroplane piccies available

Dear Damien,

That is an excellent question? And with your assistance and others, we may be able to narrow the possible identities of this airframe. My previous post has already eliminated every RCAF Hurricane airframe from 5377 onwards.

Firstly, we require the entire history of the airframe prior to the present owner purchasing the remains for restoration. What is the area of origin in Canada, who sold it, along with the history of other Hurricane remains incorporated in to this airframe, and where they were obtained, etc. Any information, no matter how inconsequential, may prove very valuable in this endeavor. Even references to published articles are most welcome.

Finally, how did the present owner arrive at the RCAF 5403 identity? And where was the c/n plate located on the airframe? What are the complete details on the plate?

Your assistance in the UK is desperately required to help solve this conundrum.

Norman Malayney

Norm

from the Hangar 11 website:

The history of our aircraft is one which begins in Canada on the 20th July 1942 as construction number: CCF/R20023, Royal Canadian Air Force serial number 5403. She joined the RCF No. 135 fighter squadron where, up to the 17th September 1945, she flew some 466 hours on active service in protection of the Northern Territories from attack by the Japanese. Then refurbished to 'as new' condition, she was sold off to the private sector as were most surviving RCAF Hurricanes after the end of the war, on 30th June 1947. Many became much needed 'hardware stores' donating their parts to keep the tractors and machinery running on the many enormous farms of the Canadian prairie. But 5403 was lucky and remained substantially intact, to be re-discovered by Tony Ditheridge in Canada in the 1990's as a very complete airframe with most major components intact. Returning to the UK, restoration work began in earnest in 2005 .

Dear Dave,

The authentic Hurricane RCAF 5403 would have the c/n 42038.

The c/n number of the current airframe CCF/R22023, if it is an original c/n plate, falls in the range of a batch of early CCF Hurricanes, of which the majority were shipped to the UK, but a few examples remained in Canada as Hawker Sea Hurricanes with RCAF serials in the BWXXX range. Did the C/N plate come from Canada or the UK?

If the above C/N R22023 is authentic, then the current flying airframe is a COMPOSITE constructed from several Hurricane remains. How else can you account for the claimed 5403 identity with a C/N R22023, each having NO relationship with each other. 5403 should have the C/N 42038.

I have the 135 Squadron microfilom and can provide the entire history of RCAF 5403 in Western Canada. But why waste time detailing the 5403 history when the current aircraft is NOT 5403?

Where did the current owner obtain information his aircraft flew with 135 Squadron?

5403 was one of 72 Hurricanes in a batch bought by Cameron Logan of New Scotland, Ontario. He originally purchased 200 surplus RCAF aircraft post-war and eventually scrapped them all, including an Me262. The remains of Hurricane center-sections lay scattered around his farm, and in the 1970s several people from western Canada and Ontario scoured the remains for parts, etc. and may even have removed the C/N plates for future use. These parts and components assisted in reconstructing several Hurricane airframes, thus resulting in so many bogus Hurricane identities. The rebuilders lacked knowledge of the correlation between c/n and RCAF serial no.

The probability of a substantial complete remains of a Hawker Hurricane surviving until the 1990s is highly unlikely--the odds are astronomical against this possibility. Therefore, the only option is the airframe is a composite constructed from several Hurricane hulks. And claiming an RCAF identity with a C/N that does not correlate, is proof-fact of this problem.

Norman Malayney

So you have told us what the identity apparently isnt, however you haven't said what it is...
Some years ago I was able to have access to the rebuilders storage area and there were indeed some very substantial Hurricane remains, some from Russia and some from Canada, so its not that improbable that a wreck would remain...

Dear Yak 11 Fan,

May I clarify my last statement. The warbird restoration scene in Canada began in the early 1960s with the rebuild of a Hawker Hurricane at Carman, Manitoba. Similar interest sprouted across the USA and world-wide at this juncture.

By the late 1960s, with formation of Canadian Warplane Heritage, many businessmen and enthusiasts scoured the Ontario counryside seeking any derelict aircraft. Some even visited every single scrapmetal dealer in the province to obtain information of what transpired post-war, and if anything remained. They visited the Ontario Archives do view small-town newspapers for hints of who purchased surplus RCAF aircraft. The scrapmetal dealers in Ontario were extremeley efficient in their work.

The probability of a "substantial airframe" remaining undetected in Ontario without any warbird enthusiasts knowing of the aircraft, is highly improbable. Ontario is highly industrialized and highly populated with excellent communciations in radio, TV, newspapers and magazines. CWH is well recognized and admired, and constantly receives tips from visitors of potential warbird finds. If a substantial Hurricane airframe sat on someone's property, it would have been spotted immediately or knowledge of it spread among the warbird community. To remain undetected in to the 1990s, is difficult to accept. Other Canadian aviation reseachers agree with this view. I stand to be corrected in this issue.

A businessman from southern Ontario did scour RCAF Hurricane crash sites in Quebec and Labrador. He told me he had Hurricane construction plates from 11 airframes, mounted in a picture frame, hung above his office desk. When I ask what he planned for them, he said he might acution them off as one lot, or sell them individually to anyone who required a Hurricane identity tag for an airframe.

I know he owned the remains of possibily 15 Hurricane airframes, and always wonder what happened to them. Then, over time, several substantial Hurricane airframes began appearing on the warbird market, and I suspect they may be the composite remains of those mentioned in the previous paragraph.

If those in the warbird community will provide additional information regarding the post-war history of this airframe (5403?/R20023?) in Canada, it will certainly assist with identifying this aircraft.

I cannot immediately pull an identity out of a magician's hat to satisfy everyone. I only learned of the aircraft's existence five days ago.

For those living in the UK, I recommend inspecting the airframe for every single part tag, or component number plate throughout the airframe and its location. A slight hint of information is better than no information.

Norman Malayney

Gentlemen,

While gleaning through Hurricanes listed in Wardbird Registry on this web site, I noticed a glaring error relalting to a CCF Hurricane registered in the UK. Hurricane 5487 is listed with C/N R30040. This/ C/N is inconsistent with RCAF Hurricane construction numbers from 5376 onwards.

I received the following data from Hurricane researcher JE Vernon, that brings to light, the above aircraft may be a Sea Hurricane:

BW853 R30019 Sea Hurricane recently sold in UK for 40,000 pounds
BW862 R30028 Sea Hurricane in CMTF, Langley, BC, Canada
BW874 R30040 Sea Hurricane in UK with bogus identity RCAF 5487

It would seem the C/N R30040, if it is an authentic C/N, correlates with Sea Hurricane BW874. The exact correlation between C/N and RCAF serial for the intial batches of CCF Hurricanes is not definitive. There are insufficient surviving intact aircraft to prove the correlations 100% correct. Therefore, BW874 is a tenative identity.

Where did the current owner obtain information his Hurricane is RCAF 5487? Where in Canada did it originate, and who was the seller? If it has an RCAF identity inconsistent with the C/N, then it is probably a composite airframe constructed from numerous Hurricane remains.

The above is Good News. The Bad News is that owners in Canada having unidentified Hurricane remains, now know the partial correlation for Sea Hurricane, serial vs C/N sequence. If they stamp similar range C/N numbers on a brass plate and rivit this to their airframe, they gain a positive identity and history for the aircraft.

A senior moment. I may have posted the above C/N inconsistency on another web site a long time ago.

Norman Malayney

Some GENERAL observations.

I'm not aware of any Canadian built Hurricane surviving that is not, to some degree a composite. Unlike stressed-skin types like the Spitfire and Mustang, the Hurricane is a Meccano or Erector Set type, with most parts, down to quite small pieces, able to be interchanged.

Talks of 'complete' Hurricanes (as in 'all parts from one identity') are irrelevant in this context.

No ex-Canadian Hurricane has a 'continuous history' in preservation - a good deal of multiple aircraft go into one location (farm etc) several aircraft, each with an identity, come out. How much the identity relates to the majority or significant parts of that airframe was generally not an issue at the time.

My understanding with my discussions with Jerry Vernon some years ago now was that Canadian Hurricane identities were highly confusing, illogical in places, and while great work has been done on trying construction numbers to serials has been done recently, that is a) recent knowledge and not available when aircraft were registered with civil authorities, and b) expressions of certainly with paperwork or personal support only are to be regarded sceptically - from all sides.

Warbird owners need an identity for ONLY ONE reason. That is to be rebuilding an aircraft, rather than creating a new aircraft type requiring certification 'with some original parts'.

The CAA (UK) CASA (Aus) FAA (USA) and TC in Canada, AFAIK aren't interested in 'proving' or 'disproving' that identity. As long as they are reasonably satisfied that the intent is genuine, they are happy to proceed with that registered identity.

They are not interested in 'tentative' identities. They need good, tidy paperwork, even at the expense of honest accurate history. History is not their job.

With the best will in the world, some aircraft have been registered with an identity later shown to be unlikely or impossible to be true. There is no requirement, and few good reasons for the owner to go to their authority and change that identity. It costs money, time, effort and has no material benefit except to keep some anoraks and historians 'happy'.

It does happen, funnily enough, when the 'change' enhances the aircraft's 'history'. Not the other way around.

Also, it is a fact that some aircraft have been rebuilt while using another aircraft's identity. How ethical or legal that is I don't know, it depends on the country in question legally, while in some cases the aircraft could not have been rebuilt (a good thing) without this substitution (a bad thing).

Phrases like 'glaring error' and 'bogus identity' bandied around in public are not going to achieve positive, constructive results.

From my limited knowledge of Hurricane rebuilding, I am extremely wary of anyone offering flat certainties without physical evidence. Physical evidence does not include paper lists of numbers from then or made now.

The exception is owners and operators, who present a real, solid Hurricane with an identity. I, and they know why it has an identity, and don't project needs for veracity onto that beyond what is realistic.

All the above applies equally to Canadian recovered Hurricanes, Lysanders and Swordfish, and to a lesser degree the stressed skin construction Bollingbrokes, Yales et al.

Regards,

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Gentlemen,

Noted Canadian aviation historian Jerry Vernon has spent well over 25 years researching the ex-RCAF Hurricanes, not only looking at the RCAF Record Cards and RCAF Accident Cards, but also studying the Courts of Inquiry and the wartime diaries of the squadrons, stations and postwar storage units. He offers the following comments.

Norman Malayney
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Some WIX members are spreading information that is not factual, but which has been pieced together incorrectly by others, from who knows where.

Furthermore, it appears that we are all of a sudden being bombarded by a sudden explosion of previously undiscovered ex-RCAF Hurricane airframes, such as RCAF 5487 that James Kightly mentions. Maybe Norm is right about the Ontario businessman having a box of Hurricane data plates from crash sites and scrapyards!! It has also been reported that Cameron Logan's many Hurricane hulks in Ontario were cut up in the 1980s to retrieve vital fittings, etc., and probably c/n tags as well.

First of all, assuming that the c/n to s/n list that was prepared in the mid-1980s by Dr. Jon Leake, Norm Malayney and myself is correct, the c/n R20023 being used here should be RAF s/n AG287, which was retained in Canada as RCAF 1374.

I should note that, when the cross-reference list was being prepared, many matches were found among the various ex-RCAF airframes that existed, but no remains had been found at that time of the several hundred earlier Hurricanes built in Canada for RAF orders. Now, we are finding them in Russia, India, etc....and apparently all over Canada!!

I was hoping that I might find that RCAF 1374 was one of the 72 Hurricanes that went into Stored Reserve at Dunnville and, like RCAF 5403, was almost certainly bought by local farmer Cameron Logan. That might give a nice neat explanation of why "c/n R20023" and "RCAF 5403" have somehow turned up associated with this beautifully restored aircraft.

Unfortunately, RCAF 1374 was scrapped in Sep 44, along with many others, when the Bagotville OTU started to wind down. It is quite possible that some parts, including the c/n tag, from RCAF 1364 found their way to the same junkyard in Quebec where other scrapped Bagotville hulks, such as BW853 (recently auctioned in the UK), BW862 (Canadian Museum of Flight), BW881 (Paul Allen Collection) and RCAF 5666 (Ed Zalesky), were found. Tony Ditheridge also had BW853 and BW881 at one time.

Let's turn then to "BE505". I am presuming that the RAF s/n was assigned to honour some particular pilot or exploit, but the unit code on the aircraft is that of a Hurricane of 135(F) Sqn.(RCAF), stationed in Western Canada. This leads us to the stories about RCAF 5403, which are somewhat distorted from the facts on record.

Fortunately, the 135 (F) Sqn. wartime diaries are very detailed, and contain a wealth of information, including aircraft s/ns, so I did not have to rely solely on the RCAF Record Card for information.

RCAF 5403 was assigned in late July of 1942 to 135(F) Sqn., squadron code "XP", stationed at RCAF Stn. Mossbank, Saskatchewan. When 135 Sqn. was formed, Hurricanes 5402 - 5425 were ferried from Fort William to Mossbank to equip the unit. When a new squadron was formed, they often received a consecutive batch of aircraft from the factory.

According to the squadron diary, RCAF 5403 was assigned the individual code "A", not "L", possibly because it was the first one to arrive. Perhaps it was re-assigned "L" at some later time or was "L" simply a convenient letter to use for lack of any other information??

RCAF 5403 was assigned to 135(F) Sqn. on 20 Jul 42 and was with the squadron until the early Spring of 1944, not until mid-September 1945 as claimed by the owners. After some undocumented period in limbo, perhaps undergoing overhaul, the aircraft then went into Stored Reserve in Eastern Canada (No. 3 Training Command), later renumbered as No. 1 Air Command.

The RCAF Record Card and squadron diary record that RCAF 5403 had a minor Cat. C accident at Mossbank on 06 Sep 42, which was apparently repairable at the unit. The date, time and pilot's name are recorded on the card and the unit diary notes that on that date Hurricane "A" was put up on its nose when Sgt. Carragher turned off the runway, which was under repair, after landing.

On 01 Oct 42 it was reassigned to Western Air Command, still with 135 (F) Sqn., which moved from Mossbank to Patricia Bay (Victoria) in early October of 1942. The next card entry is the Stored Reserve item....but 135 (F) Sqn. was at Annette Island, Alaska, and Terrace, BC, then back to Pat Bay again, in 1943 and early 1944. RCAF 5403 was with 135 Sqn. in Alaska and Terrace, as I was able to confirm from my research notes from the 135 Sqn. diary.

In late Sep 42 (date obscured), 9 Hurricanes, including 5403, were ferried from Mossbank to Patricia Bay, via Lethbridge, Alberta, Spokane, WA, and Yakima, WA. Nine more Hurricanes and 2 Harvards followed a day or so later.

There is a photo in "RCAF Squadrons and Aircraft" of 16 Hurricanes of 135(F) Sqn. parked at Pat Bay in Aug 43. I cannot see the aircraft coded "A", but it might be visible in a better or larger print.

On 31 Aug 43, 18 Hurricanes and 2 Harvards were ferried from Patricia Bay to Dog Creek, BC, en-route to Annette Island, AK. RCAF 5403 was one of those aircraft.

Perhaps a bit humorous, but the owners say that RCAF 5403 was protecting us from a Japanese attack in the Northern Territories. The "Northern Territories" are in Australia, mate, not in Canada. We do have a Northwest Territories, but there were no Hurricanes stationed there. Perhaps just a slip of the pen or he is simply (and carelessly) referring to the Alaska Panhandle and the Northwestern corner of B. C.??

On 17 Nov 43, 14 Hurricanes, including 5403, and 2 Harvards were ferried from Annette Island to Terrace, BC. Three more arrived the next day, including 2 "hangar queens" that borrowed parts from aircraft ferried on the 17th.

135 (F) Sqn. stood down from 29 Feb 44 to 11 Mar 44, pending their move from Terrace back to Pat Bay, and on 12 Mar 44 they picked up 15 "new" (ie: replacement) Hurricanes at Sea Island from No. 133 (F) Sqn. and ferried them to Pat Bay. This was part of the "musical chairs" that was carried on when squadrons moved or, in the case of 133 (F) Sqn., switched to another type of aircraft (in this case, Kittyhawks). No mention of what happened to the 17 Hurricanes that were at Terrace. No other Hurricane squadron came to Terrace to replace 135 Sqn. Were they ferried down to Vancouver, where there was a Repair Depot, or did the squadron leave them there and go on a few days of leave in the big city?? Possibly all of the former 135 Sqn. Hurricanes went in for overhaul and thence into Stored Reserve?? This sounds reasonable.

There is no mention on the card of an overhaul, except that the Remarks show 466:25 hrs TSN and 0 hrs Since Overhaul, so perhaps it was overhauled somewhere before it went into Stored Reserve. Logical, but the cards make no mention of being assigned to an overhaul contractor. Perhaps overhauled by the RCAF itself?? The history of RCAF 5403 is a blank from late Feb 44 until 07 Aug 44.

The card shows that the aircraft was in storage at No. 4 Reserve Equipment Maintenance Unit, Brantford, Ontario, and later at No. 401 Reserve Equipment Maintenance Satellite, at Dunnville, Ontario, and was sold by War Assets Corp. on 30 Jun 47.

My reviews of the REMU/REMS unit diaries show that there were no Hurricanes stored at No. 4 REMU itself, but there were 72 of them in storage at the Brantford satellite, No. 401 REMS, Dunnville.

When No. 4 REMU was closed, the responsibility for the various Satellites and Detachments then rested directly with No. 6 Repair Depot, Trenton. The card reflects these changes, first showing No. 4 REMU, then No. 401 REMS and finally No. 6 RD Dunnville as the holding location. 6 RD, of course, was headquartered at Trenton, not at Dunnville, but that's the way they showed these entries on the card, ie: 6 RD Dunnville, 6 RD Mount Pleasant, 6 RD Mountain View, etc.

Also of significance is that the figure of 72 is the number of Hurricanes that I understand Cameron Logan bought, or perhaps more, although I don't think I got that figure simply by looking at the number of aircraft stored at Dunnville!!

One line of research leads to another....several more of the ex-135 (F) Sqn. Hurricanes share the same (or very similar) SOS date as RCAF 5403, which shows that they were also probably stored and sold out of Dunnville: 5405, 5406, 5407, 5412, 5417, 5421. 5405, 5406 and 5407 have virtually identical dates to 5403, from TOS to SOS, except that 5407 was stored at Mount Pleasant rather than Dunnville. 5412, 5417 and 5421 were TOS a few days later but otherwise are almost identical to 5403, and were in storage at Dunnville. All of these, possibly also including 5407, would have been purchased by Cameron Logan.

Picking a couple of other ex-135 (F) Sqn. Hurricanes that I am very familiar with, RCAF 5418 (Reynolds Museum) and 5424 (G-HURI) were both assigned into Stored Reserve in Eastern Canada on 04 Aug 44, but the transfers were cancelled and they ended up as two of the 12 "Prairie Hurricanes", and still exist.

It appears that most of the original 135(F) Hurricanes were left behind in Terrace, BC....or perhaps Vancouver....and then either ferried or moved by rail to an overhaul depot, then put into Stored Reserve in August of 1944.

The real key to this story is WHERE did this airframe really come from?? Is it one of the two "mystery" Hurricane that were reported to be stored somewhere in Saskatchewan?? If so, then it is probably one of the two missing Hurricanes that were on the Prairies to intercept the Japanese fire balloons....certainly not RCAF 5403.

Alternatively, did it come from Tex Lavallee's "museum"(read "junkyard") in Quebec?? Did it come from the other farmer in Ontario who had some Hurricanes, a Mr. Shaw, of Omemee, Ont?? Is it from a crash site?? Is it really from Russia??

I don't really care what aircraft it really is, but call it that and not something that it isn't!!

It is a pity that the U S and UK registration authorities require certain rigid forms of paperwork before they will accept an aircraft for registration, but then they don't really care a darn if the paperwork is totally spurious or not, so long as it confirms to the form they require!! This is surely keeping a lot of good warbird restorations, reproductions, etc. out of the sky because the rebuilders and owners are unable to connect all of the dots connecting it to its true origin, so have to make up a spurious identity to satisfy the licensing authority.

Jerry Vernon
Associate Air Force Historian
President, Vancouver Chapter, Canadian Aviation Historical Society

Possibly as long as 25 years ago, Jack Arnold (no relation) of Brantford Ontario sent me a bunch of photos of Hurricane structure parts he had collected in Canada.

Then it looked like impossible junk, rusty centre and cockpit sections, compared to equivalent Spitfires of the time.

Of course now, they would be prime material for restoration and I had assumed that aside from the Russian wrecks some of the 'new' Hurricanes came from Jack.

PeterA

Dear Peter A.,

Yes, Jack Arnold is the Ontario businessman who had the 11 C/N plates in a picture frame above his office desk, derived from some of the possibly 15 Hurricane airframe remains he recovered in eastern Canada. This is a conservative estimate of the number of airframes involved.

Jack kept several photo albums filled with colour pictures that documented everything recovered/found/purchased, showing different airframe sections/components from various angles, etc. Jack Arnold was a very astute businessman.

I am sure many airframes listed in the Warbird Registry are derived from those he collected. Jerry Vernon has doubts and specualtes otherwise.

Norman Malayney

Norman,

Let Jerry know that the XP has nothing to do with 135 Squ. RCAF and is another odd coincidence on this airplane. BE505 XP-L flew with 174 Squ. RAF.

Jim