Snort in the F-86 at TICO outrunning the pyro......

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:53 am

richkolasa wrote:

Ever heard of Bob Hoover?

Sure, who hasn't?

As I said, I've never heard of this pilot in the Sabre. I don't mean any offence to him personally and I'm sure he's a great guy. But such low flying runs are not nice to see and not necessary. We have a few pilots here in NZ who go low but never stupidly low. I guess the US audiences demand more thrills?

The only pilot I've watched personally flying so low is the legendary Jurgis airys, and on one of those occsions with a couple of rows of people in front of me along the fencleine all I could do was listen. Only the front row get to see the stunt. So it's not good value for most spectators either.

As James said, the greatest of them all was Ray Hanna who lived to a ripe old age and dies of natural causes. Bob Hoover is even riper. But many other very experienced pilots who everyone assumed were unbreakbale have not always been so lucky. Don Bullock and Jim Leroy come to mind. Sorry to appear to be stirring, I'm sure most of you think this chap's act is fantastic and I'll agree it is a spectacle, but not one I'd like to pay to see.

Liza · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:09 am

While you may not have heard the name, Capt. Dale 'Snort' Snodgrass (ret.), I'm certain you've seen one of the most famous images of the tomcat he was flying. It's the shot where he's in a knife-edge pass next to the aircraft carrier and much of the wing is blocked by the deck of the boat.

Dave Cheeseman · **Joined:** Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:49 pm **Posts:** 171

Quote:

As James said, the greatest of them all was Ray Hanna who lived to a ripe old age and dies of natural causes. Bob Hoover is even riper.

UMM --UMM you can add this fella to that list too.

EDITED: didn't mean to sound like it was a competition, my bad

Jerry Billing

Dave C

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:34 am

Dave Cheeseman wrote:

Quote:

As James said, the greatest of them all was Ray Hanna who lived to a ripe old age and dies of natural causes. Bob Hoover is even riper.

UMM --UMM you can add this fella to that list too, still alive and fought in combat unlike Mr. Hanna

I actually said Ray ' may be another one of the exceptional pilots' - I'm not interested in pointless competition.

IMHO, Ray, Bob Hoover and several others are 'among the best' airshow pilots with precise control at low level. But then so were Art Scholl and Neil Williams - collision with terrain did for them, tragically (not low flying, to be accurate).

What's Bob Hoover up to these days?

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:59 am

Quote:

While you may not have heard the name, Capt. Dale 'Snort' Snodgrass (ret.), I'm certain you've seen one of the most famous images of the tomcat he was flying. It's the shot where he's in a knife-edge pass next to the aircraft carrier and much of the wing is blocked by the deck of the boat.

Any JO caught doing that would have lost his wings and would have been swimming home :idea:

marine air · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:03 am

My question is; what is he doing and did he mean to do it? Did he over shoot the boundaries and was trying not to drift into the crowdline?
I'm reminded of other ex military pilots like Hoof Proudfoot, Ray Mabry Doug Schultz, and so many others who were "better than anyone else" who "died doing what they loved" in warbirds.
Didn't "Snort" forget to lower the landing gear on an F-86A and make a gear up landing a couple of years ago? I guess maybe he's not above reproach after all.
There was a aerobatic pilot , here in the U.S, that while flying a borrowed Spitfire performed a roll on takeoff and missed hitting the ground with the wingtip by 18 inches. When approached by the owners, mechanics etc. that saw this in FLorida a few years ago, he replied " I knew exactly what I was doing and I meant to do that!"
My question is for "Snort" : WHY did you mean to do that?!!

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11330

JDK wrote:

IMHO, Ray, Bob Hoover and several others are 'among the best' airshow pilots with precise control at low level. But then so were Art Scholl and Neil Williams - collision with terrain did for them, tragically (not low flying, to be accurate).

We'll probably never know exactly with Art Scholl, but his death did not appear to be from a low flying incident as you correctly state. While factual that he did impact terrain (water), it may have been due to mechanical or failure or a loss of control due to the camera equipment he was carrying.

Quote:

Arthur Everett Scholl (24 December 1931 – 16 September 1985) was a renowned American aerobatic pilot, aerial cameraman, flight instructor and educator based in Southern California. He died during filming of Top Gun when his Pitts S-2 camera plane never recovered from a flat spin and plunged into the Pacific Ocean. Scholl's last words were "I have a problem — I have a real problem." The exact cause of the fatal crash remains unknown, as neither the plane, nor Scholl's body, were ever recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Scholl

I also don't recall Bob Hoover doing any particularly low flying in his civilian career, unless you count his landing demontrations (Tennessee Waltz, etc.). Bob Hoover also advocated energy management. I'm sure he made mistakes and was lucky during his career, human factors being what they are. I doubt that anyone considers low-level aerobatics to be entirely safe.

richkolasa · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:18 pm

bdk wrote:

I also don't recall Bob Hoover doing any particularly low flying in his civilian career, unless you count his landing demontrations (Tennessee Waltz, etc.).

I grew up watching Bob Hoover at places like Cleveland, Oshkosh, Reading...he was known at Reading, PA for his "disappearing" below the horizon on the other side of the runway. I've also seen him in the Shrike coming out of half-cuban-eights on the deck. You may not have seen it, but he was quite comfortable on the deck.

Rich

MKD1966 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:23 pm

I'm not sure if Snort gets on this forum, but if he does: YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!
PLEASE DON'T CHANGE A THING WITH YOUR DEMO'S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

richkolasa · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:30 pm

MKD1966 wrote:

I'm not sure if Snort gets on this forum, but if he does: YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!
PLEASE DON'T CHANGE A THING WITH YOUR DEMO'S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's be like asking Tiger Woods to not be so good, or asking Wayne Gretzky to "play like the other guys".

Rich

T-6G Pilot · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:24 pm

or it would be like asking Tiger "Hey man, do me a favor. This is not a tournament. If you really dig down and try to get within 1 foot of the cup on your approach shot, you'll risk tearing up the fairway on this course that is 60 years old and irreplaceable. Just back off a tad, get within 5 feet of the cup (you're gonna sink it anyway) and the crowd will be just as impressed. Then you'll preserve this course for other generations to enjoy. I mean, what if someone clicks a camera in your backswing and you take out a monster divot? Unexpected things do happen."

Ken · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:03 pm

There's a important difference that's not seen in a still snapshot.

Some of the aerobatic pilots who've hit the ground were coming out of the bottom of an over-the-top maneuver and, for whatever reason, they ran out of room. The much-photographed Thunderbird ejection is an example.

I'd bet that any of these airshow pilots will tell you that a planned low pass that is flown nearly level at fairly mild G is a much less challenging maneuver. Flying it knife-edge or making a break turn at low altitude certainly adds complexity but nothing like coming down the back side of an over-the-top.

As a side note, I believe that although Bob Hoover skimmed his belly low to the runway during his Shrike energy management maneuver, he didn't actually need that room - he methodically chose to use the pad at the bottom to make it look more impressive. If you watch his in-cockpit videos, he's fairly easy on the G until the actual pullout - completely different from a pilot with a windscreen full of dirt and pulling for all he's worth to avoid hitting the ground.

As I said at first, since I don't know Snort's routine, the photo is a split second that doesn't say alot about how the airplane got to that point. I respect his skill and understand that he's planned it to the "nth degree". I also know that things do go wrong - for his sake I hope that never happens to him. Great photos of a beautiful Sabre!

richkolasa · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:21 pm

I uploaded a short video of Dale talking Sabre flying at Oshkosh a few years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ugtgOrMlx4

Rich

T-6G Pilot · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:06 am

Ken wrote:

There's a important difference that's not seen in a still snapshot.

Some of the aerobatic pilots who've hit the ground were coming out of the bottom of an over-the-top maneuver and, for whatever reason, they ran out of room. The much-photographed Thunderbird ejection is an example.

I'd bet that any of these airshow pilots will tell you that a planned low pass that is flown nearly level at fairly mild G is a much less challenging maneuver. Flying it knife-edge or making a break turn at low altitude certainly adds complexity but nothing like coming down the back side of an over-the-top.

As a side note, I believe that although Bob Hoover skimmed his belly low to the runway during his Shrike energy management maneuver, he didn't actually need that room - he methodically chose to use the pad at the bottom to make it look more impressive. If you watch his in-cockpit videos, he's fairly easy on the G until the actual pullout - completely different from a pilot with a windscreen full of dirt and pulling for all he's worth to avoid hitting the ground.

As I said at first, since I don't know Snort's routine, the photo is a split second that doesn't say alot about how the airplane got to that point. I respect his skill and understand that he's planned it to the "nth degree". I also know that things do go wrong - for his sake I hope that never happens to him. Great photos of a beautiful Sabre!

It's a great point Ken. I don't doubt Snort's ability or the benigness(is that a word?) of the maneuver performed. I'm also not jumping on Snort in particular because others do it too. It's just that his photo was in this thread. All I'm saying is that there are a finite number of the airplanes still flying and I just hope the people that fly them (me included) always realize that we are stewards of history first. It is an obligation I think we owe the men and women who gave their lives for us fighting in these machines. My opinion of course, but hey, that's why we come to WIX right?

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:56 am

marine air wrote:

I guess maybe he's not above reproach after all.

No pilot is. Recent incidents show that Scott Crossfield wasn't. Neither was Art Vance. Or any host of other highly experienced pilots who have died in airplanes.

Is there anyone arguing that Snort is just "so good" that what he does is perfectly safe? No, definitely not. He's just as fallible as any other human being.

I think there is a BIG mis-attribution of things going on here by many people. Nobody is saying that Snort "can't be wrong", they're saying that what you see in his airshow performances are a demonstration of measured risk.

There is a big difference between what is what is *perceived* as risky and what is *actually* risky. Highly trained and experienced people can accomplish things with relative ease that look absolutely impossible to the untrained eye. That doesn't mean they're infallible -- it means that they can take well-measured risks which look very impressive, in this case to an airshow crowd.

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Snort in the F-86 at TICO outrunning the pyro......

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